Faerûn[Forgotten Realms]TW - v0.2 released, check the first post

[Vladyvid]

Out of these, I'd say Algarond, Turmish, Tashalar, Damara, and Chondath are the most important 5, although I think Dambrath would be a good idea as it would give Halruaa something to fight.

Yes I agree with your 5 choices, Tashalar seems more of a solid faction than the Lapaliiya which can be represented by rebel states. I think Dambrath could be one of the factions we add later when we expand to 29 faction slots (as I've read that's possible).

As I was researching, I noticed a problem with the start date, as the Silver Marches wasn't formed until 1371 and Damara wasn't a faction in this time until 1359. Also if we kept the timeland we should include the Tuigan Horde, mongol-like people who invaded northeast Faerun and (...) I think 1372 would be a better start point (...)

I must admit that I also have doubts about the start date. You are right saying that the avatar crisis was mostly a war fought among the dieties, but initially I thought it would be a great idea to include the avatars. Now I can see more problems than benefits with the time of troubles. Still, I want the campaign to start before the spellplague because I don't like the changes it brings. But then what about the Banehold (Bane's forces) faction? Would is still be there in 1372? Oh, and the Shadovar invades in 1372 so it's a neat date.

About the Tuigan Horde, yes I knew about it but their invasion was short lasting so I'm not sure if they are important enough.

Edit:
About the Shadovar symbol, it's just my idea so I took it from nowhere, a flying serpent kind of a dragon. I''ll work on the Moradin symbol for Great Rift. I made one anvil symbol but I was not entirely happy with it so didn't posted it here.

[Vladyvid]

I updated the faction list in the first post:

01 Sembia
02 Cormyr
03 Tethyr
04 Amn
05 Calimshan
06 Haalrua
07 Thay
08 Great Rift
09 Lords' Alliance
10 Chondath
11 Luskan
12 Many-Arrows
13 Silver Marches
14 Turmish
15 Aglarond
16 Rashemen
17 Zhentarim
18 Elturgard
19 Banehold
20 Shadovar
21 Damara
22 Tashalar
23 Mulhorand
24 rebels

I believe this is a good list and even if we decide change one of the factions, it will be a minor change.
Now then as the work on faction symbols is progressing, there are still many factions which symbols are unknown or unconfirmed.
I would like to ask you guys who are kind enough to help with researching, to give your own ideas or help with lore based info.

My plan for the next couple of days:
1. While the symbols researching will continue, I will be further editing the campaign map with proper regions for all the factions already decided, placing them in their starting areas and so forth. I hope to have it done by the end of this weekend. Note that the map will not be entirely finished as for example I want to add the resources later. This stage of map work will be all of its geography + faction placement/regions ownership.
2. When all symbols are sorted I will add them to all factions in game (strat and battle) and then the work on units researching will begin. I want to be at this stage before the next weekend. I think it's realistic estimation.

[vercassivelaunos]

Could you do a list of those people who have agreed to help with the mod by now? It would be easier to organize. I think we're 5 people by now, including you. If I'm right, it would make sense to have one of them searching for possible faction symbols, one for buildings, to for units and one for some general research. We could do much more work in a shorter time by simply giving everyone a different task.

[Vladyvid]

Could you do a list of those people who have agreed to help with the mod by now? It would be easier to organize. I think we're 5 people by now, including you. If I'm right, it would make sense to have one of them searching for possible faction symbols, one for buildings, to for units and one for some general research. We could do much more work in a shorter time by simply giving everyone a different task.

The list of people who agreed to help with this mod is in the first post below the factions list. You're right that if everyone did some different research at the same time, this would make bigger progress.
So, who would research what then?

- symbols
- units
- buildings
- names
- general research (Hmm what would that include?)

[vercassivelaunos]

I could do the symbol research. General research would be things like possible events, faction relations, ambitions of the factions (for winning conditions), etc.

[Vladyvid]

I could do the symbol research. General research would be things like possible events, faction relations, ambitions of the factions (for winning conditions), etc.

I recommend Forgotten Realms wiki as one of the online sources.

I've got a border for the symbols:


Bottom right corner symbol is for Sembia (raven with silver coins on a red background) and is based on a coat of arms I found on candlekeep.com forums. Left from Sembia is the new idea for Great Rift symbol, with Moradin's hammer and anvil.

[vercassivelaunos]

The symbols look much better with the border

I'll see what I can find.

About a signature:
1. Go to "my Account" in the top left corner of the screen.
2. Search for "Settings & Options" on the left border of the screen.
3. Click "Edit Signature"

Edit: A palm holding fire as the symbol of Calimshan could fit.

The history of the Calishites has led them to have deeply rooted ties to the Genies and Efreeties that long since have left the lands. The blood of these beings is said to still be with its peoples lending for exceptional skill in the arcane arts of fire.

For Amn I recommend a wage, as it is a nation heavily depending on trade.

Chondath could have the symbol of Tempus (flaming sword), surrounded by coins (5 on the left side, 5 on the right side), as they worship Tempus, and are a merkantile people.

[MedievalDragoon]

I think Amn's Symbol would be something like coins, I don't know why but I always remember this one distinct picture of falling coins, wait...that's Waukeens holy symbol. Could still work though, since she is their patron deity.
What's a wage? >.>'

Also for general events, there are annual cultural festivals as well as festivals for most of the deities. Also key events such as the kidnapping of Waukeen by Graz'zt in 1358 and her release in 1370 or the ascension of Mystra, Cyric, and that other guy in 1358 could be added for flavor. Bahamet becoming a deity worshiped by humans in 1359DR.

OH! The appearance of the Tuigan horde in 1360 and the discovery of Mazteca in 1361. Halaster's Harvestide in 1369.

Also, Is the mod going to include all of those random attacks by humanoid armies they everyone seems to experience, or will they just be represented by random rebels?


More Random Stuff:

Amn is ruled by a council, sort of like Venice.
Athkatla and Waterdeep participated in cross-continental trade, almost exclusively so.


I'll stop thinking myself into knots and confusing everyone now, well at least in this post.

[Vladyvid]

About a signature:
1. Go to "my Account" in the top left corner of the screen.
2. Search for "Settings & Options" on the left border of the screen.
3. Click "Edit Signature"

Thanks a bunch, I got it now!

A palm holding fire as the symbol of Calimshan could fit.

It might, but I think it's just as good as any arcane symbol. I would prefer it to be something distinctively Calishite. That's because Calimshan is one of the major powers in Faerun and deserves to be presented with all its uniqueness. Calimshan inherits the legacy of the Shoon Empire (kind of arabic-styled empire, like the moorish khaliphate), while the legacy of the Genies and Efreeties is the legacy of the genasi race (cross of human and elemental). The Genies and Efreeties indeed established first cities in what is later to be known as Calimshan, but they used the humans as slaves and were despised. They introduced arcane arts to those people but it was at the price of their freedom and often lives. To make our research easier I think we could look at possible arabic symbols which are likely to be used in the lands of Calimshan. Symbols like (from the top of my head): camel, stars, crescents, scimitars, domed building, palm tree, etc. Most of these could be seen in Calimshan, we just need to think in terms of what would the ruler like to use. Calimshan is ruled by despotic Syl-Pasha.

That is also one way we could look for other symbols - by searching for rulers and their personal symbols (which are sometimes known).

For Amn I recommend a wage, as it is a nation heavily depending on trade.

I'm not sure what you mean by a wage, but something tells me you mean a scale? If so, then indeed that could be taken into account. Only that like I wrote above, there are certain noble families and royal houses which do have coats of arms, and there were many such in Amn (former Emirate of Amin). Waukeen and money seems to be the most common association with Amn, but there are other mercantile nations in Faerun that also worship Waukeen, so should they all be money people with money on their flags? Maybe yes but maybe no. I will try to research some of the noble or royal families and such to find something heraldic.

Chondath could have the symbol of Tempus (flaming sword), surrounded by coins (5 on the left side, 5 on the right side), as they worship Tempus, and are a merkantile people.

I like the sword idea better than coins. What I've read about Chondath is that apart from mercantile affairs, they are very strong militarily:

The sprawling capital city-state of Arrabar is where political power coalesces in Chondath. The city lies at the nexus of two prominent trade roads: the coastal Emerald Corridor and the southern Golden Road. Its people are fisherfolk, merchants, craftsfolk, and mercenaries. Among the latter group are members of mercenary companies, such as the Sapphire Crescent (who rest here between assignments), and members of private armies permanently stationed in the capital.

Do you notice the names emerald corridor and sapphire crescent? Do they like emerald or sapphire colours? I've read somewhere else that Chondath is like renaissance Italy, so the use of coats of arms would be common. We just need to dig it up. If we find nothing substantial then I guess maybe something like an arm holding a sword over a money sack or something like that could be considered. Since the coat of arms of Sembia already includes coins, I'd rather not have other symbols with coins.

Also for general events, there are annual cultural festivals as well as festivals for most of the deities. Also key events such as the kidnapping of Waukeen by Graz'zt in 1358 and her release in 1370 or the ascension of Mystra, Cyric, and that other guy in 1358 could be added for flavor. Bahamet becoming a deity worshiped by humans in 1359DR.

OH! The appearance of the Tuigan horde in 1360 and the discovery of Mazteca in 1361. Halaster's Harvestide in 1369.

That's good stuff.

Also, Is the mod going to include all of those random attacks by humanoid armies they everyone seems to experience, or will they just be represented by random rebels?

I think they should be mostly as rebels, or some as mercenaries. You mean humanoids such as ogres, orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, trolls etc? Some of them could be recruitable to some factions (likely the 'evil' ones).

[Vladyvid]

I've been looking for the symbols we still lack, and I have no substantial information yet. I have an idea though. After I get back home from work today, I'm going to play a bit BGIISoA and BGIIToB. This may help with Amn and Tethyr as they are set in those realms. I remember in the goverment building in Athkatla (Amnish capital) there is some circular symbol on the floor, but it is so strange that I don't even know what is it. It looks like maybe some twisted beastly (dragon?) skeleton on a dark red field. It just doesn't look good, in terms of a symbol. I'll try to check other locations. The soldiers of Amn wear dark red uniforms under the armour. The Throne of Bhaal starts in Saradush (Tethyrian castle-city) so I hope to find some symbols there. I was browsing various DnD forums and stumbled upon some threads discussing symbols and coats of arms, but it seems that even the people there (FR lore maniacs) are not sure about those symbols we still need. This leads me to think that if our researchers come with no lore-backed conclusions (because of the lack of info) we should employ our creativity and heraldic knowledge and come up with our own symbols. Symbols of the various faerunian dieties could be used as a backup source but I would prefer them to be only part of the faction's symbols - the way that for example a cross is part of the coat of arms of ... FC Barcelona .

If any of you have games or books set in Forgotten Realms lore, please try to check if there are any symbols we might use.

The search for symbols is not hindering the overall progress at this point. We have decided the factions already (or pretty much so) and I am in the process of adding more and more provinces to the campaign map. I know that one picture is worth a thousand words, so will try my best to be able to post some results of my work later tonight / early tomorrow.

UNITS
To our researchers: as the futile efforts to find proper faction symbols may dismay you, you could start researching possible units. It would be best to keep it organised, so if you are up for that, post which factions units you are researching so others can handle the remaining ones. This research should be much more fruitful and comprehensive, as there loads of fighting orders, mercenary companies and various other military forces described in the lore.

I have some general ideas about the armies and units:
- no peasans, no levies
- no siege weaponry (only rams, ladders and siege towers)
- no artillery or gunpowder units
- trainable mercenaries
- rare cavalry / bodyguard & elite units mostly
- elite units with multiple HP

For manyfactions the armies would largely consist of:
1. town/city guards regiments
2. mercenary companies (often exclusive to certain factions or even cities)
3. bodyguards and private armies
4. slaves and summoned monsters (for evil factions and mage-controlled)

Magic on the battlefield
Including mages or wizzards on the battlefield is another idea that I want to achieve. This and monster units would be probably the hardest thing to get. I will consider asking other modders (maybe the LOTR mod team) if we could use some of their models later on.

Despite the obvious difficulties with including spellcasters in battles, I think there could be a wide range of magical units that fight in melee mostly - swordmages for example (swordsmen using magicly enchanted weapons). Another way of including some of the magical units could be ranged units using fireballs - modded version of burning missiles from catapults. Perhaps the balista projectile could be modded to look like a lightning or frost bolt, and thus be used to immitate such spells. The defensive abilities such as stone skin, magic shields, spheres of invulnerability could be included by increased HP or defence skill. I have many more ideas, but what do you people think? Can we achieve such effects as I'm describing?

[MedievalDragoon]

I think that the Call of Warhammer mod has wizards with various spells, and there is another mod who is working on frost spell effects, I don't know about ballista bolts, but it seems that it is possible.

Also, I know that Halruaa has an army, besides the mages, but that it is made up of mostly light Calvary and light infantry.
They are also at war with Dambrath, who's people live to preform raids across the passes.

Dambrath also uses mostly light units, as both it and Halruaa have large plains regions.

Halruaan cities are actually very small, the capital and largest city (Halarahh) only holding 8000 souls and being marked a small city.

[Clansman117]

First let me say that the border on the symbols is great, you are great at 2D art. Now, I see that some of these ideas have been said or decided to be changed, but I'll post them anyway.
Tethyr's symbol could be a silver chalice, maybe on a blue background, as the greatest knights order is the Order of the Silver Chalice.
Amn is led by a council of 6 leaders and wealth is very important, so I'd suggest 6 gold coins on a grey background for the Shadow Thieves. But if that game has a symbol we should use that.
Shadovar's symbol should be a dragon like you have, but a violet colored one. Kinda creepy how accurate it was.
For Silver Marches I would suggest a gem on a white background, as Silverymoon is called the gem in the north, and it's knights are called the Knights in Silver.
And I found a symbol of the Zhentarim, although I'm not sure how to turn it into a faction symbol.



I'll look for symbols for Damara, Alglarond, Rashemen, and Tashalar now, if that's ok.

[vercassivelaunos]

Yes, I meant a scale, when I said wage (google told me so).

If any of you have games or books set in Forgotten Realms lore, please try to check if there are any symbols we might use.

I only have got NWN + AddOns and NWN2. The only symbols possibly included could be Nesseril, Neverwinter, Luskan, Waterdeep, Lords' alliance, Illefarn, Cania and the lord of shadows. None of them are needed

- no siege weaponry (only rams, ladders and siege towers)

I would add them in your stead. In NWN th Luskanite forces use ballistas and catapults.

And magic on the battlefield is not hard to achieve. Give the models the animations of Naffatun, and the ammunition of greek fire throwers/ballistas/catapults and you're fine. The only hard thing could be to change the colours for ice spells or similar.

Edit: What about this symbol for Calimshan. It is a coin from the Ottoman Empire.

You could say that the stars are a symbol for their claim of all lands east and west of the sea of fallen stars.

[Vladyvid]

Halruaan cities are actually very small, the capital and largest city (Halarahh) only holding 8000 souls and being marked a small city.

Actually I'm now thinking, since the nation of Haalrua (sp?) is separated on all sides from its neighbours (perhaps only some few mountain passes from Dambrath) maybe we would make a more interesting campaign using that faction slot for another nation? Leaving Haalrua as one of the "extra" factions which would be added after the first selection is playable?

Tethyr's symbol could be a silver chalice, maybe on a blue background, as the greatest knights order is the Order of the Silver Chalice.

That would be a rather unique coat of arms, which I like. Additionally, I just checked the city of Saradush in Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal, and despite the lack of banners or flags, on every tower, on the city walls, every taller building etc there are statues of angels, or angelic-looking creatures. These angels are dressed in long robes, some have 2 some 4 wings, and some of them wield longswords while the others have their hands open as if greeting. So perhaps something like an angel with silver chalice in one hand and a sword in another would be a cool symbol?

I also checked Amn in the Shadows of Amn, and in the government district in Athkatla, the most prominent statues are those portraying Esmel Torlath, the first king of Amn. He is depicted standing with a book in his hand, long cloak on his arms and a cap on his head (not a crown), the cap is similar to medieval european caps they used to wear under helmets. Another detail would be that in the government building there, the throne remains empty - perhaps an empty throne?

Shadovar's symbol should be a dragon like you have, but a violet colored one. Kinda creepy how accurate it was.
For Silver Marches I would suggest a gem on a white background, as Silverymoon is called the gem in the north, and it's knights are called the Knights in Silver.

OK I will redo the Shadovar and nice idea with the Silver Marches, I like it.

And I found a symbol of the Zhentarim, although I'm not sure how to turn it into a faction symbol.

I also found this symbol, along with 4 or 5 other Zhentarim symbols, but it was hard to make a coat of arms with it because the wyrm was barely recognisable when made smaller - and it must be smaller to fit into the round shield symbol. I used the symbol that I found was associated with the Zhents and looked the most sinister to me. I could make one only with the black scepter (without the wyrm) to compare/decide.

Yes, I meant a scale, when I said wage (google told me so).

I guessed cause in my language a scale is waga.

I would add them in your stead. In NWN th Luskanite forces use ballistas and catapults.

I am aware that catapults are in use, but I don't want to make it possible for the player to make blitzkrieg castle/city sacking - that is possible with cataputs or other trainable siege weapons. I want the player to lay siege, or use a spy. Catapults make the game too easy in my opinion. I can change my mind if you can convince me, but for now I'm against the catapults.

And magic on the battlefield is not hard to achieve. Give the models the animations of Naffatun, and the ammunition of greek fire throwers/ballistas/catapults and you're fine. The only hard thing could be to change the colours for ice spells or similar.

That would be very cool if its so easy.

What about this symbol for Calimshan. It is a coin from the Ottoman Empire.
You could say that the stars are a symbol for their claim of all lands east and west of the sea of fallen stars.

I like the idea of the stars. The sea of fallen stars is a bit further, Calimshan would be more the Shining Sea empire, but its ok. The stars in my opinion would fit it. I will make some 2-3 versions to compare and we pick the coolest one.

Good work everyone, keep it up!

Edit: + Rep for each of you - oops it says I can't do it now but I gave you earlier today, so maybe thats why?

[vercassivelaunos]

You first have to give rep to other users, before you can give more to anyone you already gave rep.
In the wiki it says that the Calimite (I know that that's an offense to those people, but I can't remember the right word) think that they have the right to rule everything east and west of the sea of fallen stars. Which is in fact whole Faerun.

I am aware that catapults are in use, but I don't want to make it possible for the player to make blitzkrieg castle/city sacking - that is possible with cataputs or other trainable siege weapons. I want the player to lay siege, or use a spy. Catapults make the game too easy in my opinion. I can change my mind if you can convince me, but for now I'm against the catapults.

You could alter the amount of damage siege weapons cause to walls, but keep the damage against units.

[MedievalDragoon]

i think for Calimshan its calishite.

Also, I'll have to look but I'm pretty sure I have a lot of source books, 7 on my PC and 3 or 4 or so somewere in my basement.

Edit: Just to throw something out there if this mod was to include adventurers somehow, there are several adventurer mercenary companies in Faerun. So for example, one could hire a small band of Rangers to ambush an enemy, or some assassins to strike an enemy commander in battle.

And how will the papal system be included, if it will be?

[Clansman117]

I think that what he meant as the blitzkrieg with siege weapons is how you could start a battle from the campaign map without any time spent sieging. If that is the case, there is a way to have siege weapons not let you start a battle right away because Thera did it for ballistae.

[MedievalDragoon]

I think that what he meant as the blitzkrieg with siege weapons is how you could start a battle from the campaign map without any time spent sieging. If that is the case, there is a way to have siege weapons not let you start a battle right away because Thera did it for ballistae.

I think there is somthing in the Export_dscr_Unit.txt file that denotes wether or not somthing will allow a instant battle siege thing.

could be the siege catagory or the artillery attribute.

if anyone knows where that is in the vanilla version of the game...


On the topic of Units...

For Lords Alliance (Waterdeep region specificly) ( Based of City of Splendors Source Book)

The Gray Hands - a group of powerful fighters, barbarians, and rangers who are called upon by the Lords of Waterdeep to defend the city against foes of usual strength. Their best known for their ability to take massive amounts of damage and dish out twice as much. (Very elite, average lvl of 12 in an adventurer class, Magic equipment)

City Watch - Waterdeep's (Perhaps all Lord's Alliance) police force, tasked with patrolling the city and maintaining order. (Described as a Human Expert lv 1 with masterwork short-swords, so town guard)

City Guard- The Armed forces of Waterdeep, the Guard is made up of professional soldiers that control access to the city and patrol the countryside. (Warrior lv 2, with magic Shortbow and masterwork longsword, chainmail, and Steel Shield)

[Vladyvid]

Campaign map progression update.



At this moment there are 140 regions and its working fine. On the map above you can't see all of the regions there are there already, you can only see the ones that I think are mostly correct. Some borders are not visible because the regions colours are not significant in what I want you to see.

Red - impassable areas: Pelvuria Glacier in the north, and desert in the south-east(forgot the exact name)
Green - areas with regions that are not correctly placed yet and areas that need more regions
Yellow - areas that I want to be impossible to conquer and make permanent wastelands

You can pass but you can't conquer!
The idea of the wastelands is based on the fact that the vast areas in the south (the Shaar) don't have permanent settlements and are largely uninhabited steppes. Similarly the Hordelands in the north-east. I want to make them regions without settlements, well there will be hidden settlements that players won't be able to conquer. This will also prevent the wasteland areas from being covered with work network.

We don't play in the forest cause of the elves!
Additionally I'm considering to make some of the larger forests impossible to conquer in the same way - to include them as rebel regions spawning elvish rebels for example. Many of the faerun's forests were never penetrated by human nations so I think it would be correct thing to implement, rather than dividing the big forests among surrounding human regions or making them just normal regions that everyone can conquer.

Haalrua or something else?
Another thing that I wanted to ask everyone interested is, do you think we should replace the Haalrua faction with another more prominent faction from a different part of the map? I'm asking this because of the location which is too remote to make an interesting campaign for people who decide to play as Haalrua. Another reason would be that they were rather isolationist, separated from other factions and never created a larger empire. What do you think guys?

I've been working on some symbols; have a better Shadovar symbol, selection of ideas for Tethyr (5 now but I will add 2-3 more to decide), Chondath (with swords and coins), Calimshan ideas (with stars+ scimitar, stars+crescent), one for Silver Marches. I want to make some for Amn and few other factions then I will post a larger update with symbol options for you all to discuss and pick the ones we all think are best.

One more question to the researchers, is Bane faction still around in 1372 DR?

Good work with these ideas MedievalDragoon, keep it up!

About cataputs - yes I meant to not be able to attack the settlement and capture it in one turn. I want sieges to last longer than 1 turn.

[Vladyvid]

i think for Calimshan its calishite.

Also, I'll have to look but I'm pretty sure I have a lot of source books, 7 on my PC and 3 or 4 or so somewere in my basement.

Edit: Just to throw something out there if this mod was to include adventurers somehow, there are several adventurer mercenary companies in Faerun. So for example, one could hire a small band of Rangers to ambush an enemy, or some assassins to strike an enemy commander in battle.

And how will the papal system be included, if it will be?

Adventurers - yes I want to have as 'normal' mercenaries or trainable mercenaries.

The papal system will be a little tricky. The papal faction is Elturgard - because it is a theocracy ruled by paladins of Torm.

My idea at this moment would be for Elturgard to act on behalf of the good/neutral dieties, giving gods-fearing factions quests designed by gods. Eg. Torm wants you to build him a temple in such and such settlement, Helm want's you to defend certain town/faction maybe, Tempus calls for all his followers to invade faction x and settle the matters on the field of battle, etc. etc.

There are numerous gods who could be sources of such quests. Only that I'm not sure if the papal faction leader should be elected from among the cardinals or just be hereditary leader of that faction. I am in favour of removing cardinals.

In general I want the papal faction not to be in control of other factions as such, but rather act as a messenger of gods to other nations. There is a second sun shining above the city of Elturel, so by this fact alone, Elturgard is under special protection of the gods (the second sun prevents the shadow beings from invading), this I think gives them validity as the papal faction.

Regarding the crusades or Jihads, I think they can be used similarly to M2TW.