How to avoid bloodbaths in siege assaults?

[jahjeremy]

Any tips for avoiding the typical siege bloodbath when assaulting?

Does it help to get 3-4 siege weapons in the mix and poke holes in the walls like in Vanilla? Heck, I used to use 8 siege weapons just for fun. What about bringing up archers to draw fire? Getting 8-10 ladders and 2 rams instead of 5? What works for you to minimize losses in a siege attack?

It pains me when half the troops of a new heavy infantry unit on "huge" unit size get eaten up taking the walls and I outnumber them overall 3 or 4 to 1. I think it may have something to do with the high defense values of units compared to those in Vanilla. Taking the walls takes FOREVER when fully defended unless they route.

On the other hand, I've had some mega-epic victories defeating 2 to 3 times my numbers when I'm defending in a siege. That's fun times.

[k/t]

"It pains me when half the troops of a new heavy infantry unit on "huge" unit size get eaten up taking the walls and I outnumber them overall 3 or 4 to 1"

"On the other hand, I've had some mega-epic victories defeating 2 to 3 times my numbers when I'm defending in a siege. That's fun times. "

[jahjeremy]

I know that I kind of contradicted myself. But the AI is pretty stupid in siege battles. I can do clever things that it can't on defense, usually involving a lot of flaming arrows and sallying cavalry.

[Ichon]

Spies are the easiest way to reduce casualties as they open gates without requiring ram and allow access to the inner keep. It is even possible to win battles merely by racing 2 units of cavalry to the inner keep and sending one out to block the retreating AI from entering before the timer expires.

After spies attacking with the aid of an ally is the next easiest way to win- let them assault first and then once they have fallen back move in. Occasionally they might actually threaten to win the battle though by capturing the square but don't worry- the victory and occupation of the city still goes to you.

Next easiest is attacking on multiple walls. IE- sit 1/3 majority of your army in front to hold the AI there. Send 20% of the remained to each of the other walls- in deployment you can only send to the 3 walls but if you are patient put it on 6x speed and send to the back wall if the AI has a full stack inside the walls. Then assault the wall furthest from the main body of AI or towards the area with the weakest troops so you won't take many casualties. AI almost always rushed most of its troops back to central keep or to the first wall you capture. Then move in on all the other walls simultaneously. Once you are inside the streets you can flank the AI and bottle AI up so when a massive rout starts only 1-3 units make it back to the central keep and then you can send archers protected by infantry onto the walls by carrying ladders inside and shoot the remaining AI to pieces with almost 0 casualties.

Cannons/siege also can break holes in walls and kill loads of defenders though personally it seems a bit cheap as the AI hardly ever does that plus it slows your armies down. Once you break a few holes in close proximity it becomes almost like a field battle though the maneuver room is limited you just need to flank one side to get a rout going.

If you have much stronger heavy infantry the next best is to send up your infantry and capture the walls, then send up fresh infantry to hold the walls and archers behind them. The archers then fire down into the trapped masses of enemy in the street below and slaughter them. Instead of losing 2-3 heavy infantry units just breaching the gate you'll lose maybe 1 heavy (50% of 2).

Next is a simultaneous assault on a side wall away from majority of enemy troops. Objective is to capture and open a gate as fast as possible to let the rest of your army inside. You will take higher losses than the earlier methods but also less than assaulting the main gate where majority of enemy are.

Stay away from trying to make it through the main gate unless the enemy has no spear or AP infantry- then you can push them back with your heavy cavalry allowing your infantry to follow in the main gate without being trapped there too long. Its still expensive to do it that way because each unit passing under the gate will suffer some casualties from the oil- usually about 5-10% of each unit.

[Liandro]

You could bring one army, full of junky troops, cheap militia and the sort and have them in the heavy artillery back up, those guys will attack a town/castle first, and blast all the walls down that you need blown down, I bring about 6-8 trebuchets if possible and a crap load of unarmored unexperienced militia, they just protect the artillery. Then after that, I either have them wait until the timer goes out or wear out as many of the defenders as I can. After that, the real army moves in, the knock out crew, they simply pass through all the walls and go on into the main town square and kill everything, no need for spies and people getting burned up at the gates, I especially hate those battles where it's one unit and for some stupid reason I lose more units taking the town than what they had entirely in for defense. Fully mailed heavy infantry losing more than half against spear militia or some other equally stupid weak defense unit.

I suppose this is cheap, but it takes forever and it's nowhere near my main assault, just giving an alternative.

[jahjeremy]

Yes! I like the way Liandro and Ichon roll.

It is those damned castle defense towers that give me the willies. Those things kinda hurt my lil infantry guys.

I think I need to bring far more artillery, though I think SS buffs HP of towers/gate/walls (?) compared to Vanilla.

[rpmonline1]

If you use ladders/towers on the walls, just try to take the main gate as quickly as possible and bring in some archers (crossbows are better!). Then unleash hell on their wall defenders from within their own walls . Even weak militia archers can quickly smash their morale. Hold off on having troops climb the walls until the gate is almost busted.

If you have siege weapons, use any extra ammo on destroying towers where you plan to invade. Those things are nasty.

Oh and make going through boiling oil gates, have the weak units take the hit, and then quickly get some quality units in there b4 the next oil drops.

[Hypomanic Crusader]

spy and rush cavalry tactic I have used a few times have produced some lovely blood baths for the enemy. If you get the chance with a spy just rush the middle. Theres a standard fall back the AI always uses that once a unit is sufficiently far enough in the city / castle they move all units back to the centre. All a question of timing but if you get a fair few cav units to the middle from another gate, should make them fall back and you can rush the unoccupied gate with what infantry you have - shove in some archers for good measure if you have nothing else and get the majority of the enemy pincered in a narrow street. Depends greatly on troop quality of the enemy and any annoying generals about, but generally if its a mediocre force they'll loose their nerve and rout, and your remaining cav will have a nice bunch of experience after chopping down the cowards. I've only been able to pull it off a few times though as timing is a major factor. Rush too early, and your cav will have a hard time fighting a horde of enemy units rushing back. Rush too late and the enemy will have all their units in the centre and will never run away.

[Homeros]

Assaulting cities/castles is always the worst possible option - at least according to Sun Tzu

There are already some good tips (or 'cheats') to beat the enemy AI at sieges. Spies plus a couple (good) HA units can clear cities without casualties (beware of enemy heavy cav and turn off skirmish). Better though, is to look (or wait) for an enemy stack in front of the settlement you want to take. Attack it with a small force so it won't retreat. Destroy both forces and you can take the settlement (undamaged). You can also lay siege with a small force (composed to deal with the enemy units inside the settlement) - when the force is small enough, the enemy will sally out = Heroic Victory.

I've stopped siege warfare because it feels cheap and takes a long time to finish. I either attack stacks in front of settlements, have the enemy sally out or, when there are only one or a couple units on guard, auto-resolve. I also don't use sieges defensively. AI will always attack cities (not armies) so leaving only a governor almost guarantees you're besieged. Attack the besieging army and destroy them in the field (instead of on the walls).

[Ichon]

Assaulting cities/castles is always the worst possible option - at least according to Sun Tzu

There are already some good tips (or 'cheats') to beat the enemy AI at sieges. Spies plus a couple (good) HA units can clear cities without casualties (beware of enemy heavy cav and turn off skirmish). Better though, is to look (or wait) for an enemy stack in front of the settlement you want to take. Attack it with a small force so it won't retreat. Destroy both forces and you can take the settlement (undamaged). You can also lay siege with a small force (composed to deal with the enemy units inside the settlement) - when the force is small enough, the enemy will sally out = Heroic Victory.

I've stopped siege warfare because it feels cheap and takes a long time to finish. I either attack stacks in front of settlements, have the enemy sally out or, when there are only one or a couple units on guard, auto-resolve. I also don't use sieges defensively. AI will always attack cities (not armies) so leaving only a governor almost guarantees you're besieged. Attack the besieging army and destroy them in the field (instead of on the walls).

Yeah- this is the better way to play. You'll only have to fight siege assaults 1/5 or less of the time this way while most battles will be field battles and the few sieges you do fight will usually be against small forces.

[recentiy03]

It seems like the Timurids adhere to the ancient wisdom of The Art of War, as they refuse to attack my castles, preferring to starve me out. Is there a way to bait them into attacking? I've already had to surrender a castle or two and when I send out the besieged army to fight against an all-horse-archer army it isn't much of a fight, as the eastern wall of my empire crumbles.

[Homeros]

@ Recentiy03,

The enemy AI will only assault your settlements if it thinks it has a good chance of winning. When you have a strong garrison, they will starve you to death instead (the AI does the same thing against other AI factions). In case of the Mongols and Timurids, also check their stacks. Sometimes they don't have infantry thus cannot assault settlements (for all I know, the AI doesn't understand siege engines can be used to bring down walls - the AI has never attacked one of my settlements without laying siege for at least one turn and construct some siege equipment, without siege equipment the AI does not attack). The key to fight a successful defensive war lies in knowing (roughly) how the AI calculates the outcome of battles. I recommend to save and move units in and out your castles (or disband them when you're under siege) to figure out when the AI will attack and what you need to hold the castle. Usually a small but specialized army is enough to beat a much larger force, the moment you find this 'sweet spot', you can go nuts defending your castles.

@ Ichon,

The only issue I have with avoiding sieges is you have to fight more battles. The AI never attacks armies in the field, but always goes for your settlements. When you put a strong army in your settlements, the AI does nothing (they just camp outside the walls til you either remove/reduce the garrison or when the AI is attacked by another faction). Sometimes its better to properly defend your towns in order to buy time or simply because you're tired fighting the same stacks over and over again. It's also a good way to prevent the AI from declaring war. If it thinks it cannot take one of your settlements (and doesn't have ships nearby to blockade one of your ports), the AI doesn't declare war.

It's, however, a lot of fun to keep your garrisons small. It ensures your faction will be at war with everybody in the area within the first 20 or so turns. Total War in its optima forma

[Ichon]

The only issue I have with avoiding sieges is you have to fight more battles. The AI never attacks armies in the field, but always goes for your settlements. When you put a strong army in your settlements, the AI does nothing (they just camp outside the walls til you either remove/reduce the garrison or when the AI is attacked by another faction). Sometimes its better to properly defend your towns in order to buy time or simply because you're tired fighting the same stacks over and over again. It's also a good way to prevent the AI from declaring war. If it thinks it cannot take one of your settlements (and doesn't have ships nearby to blockade one of your ports), the AI doesn't declare war.

It's, however, a lot of fun to keep your garrisons small. It ensures your faction will be at war with everybody in the area within the first 20 or so turns. Total War in its optima forma

Fighting more battles in the enemies territory rather than yours is usually better. MTW2 does not reflect this strongly enough as devastation is rather limited and really only an economic effect that doesn't touch population or infrastructure as in reality.

It might depend on difficulty level but when I play the AI always attacks my armies in the field- very occasionally it will walk by if its in range of a city but if you are in enemy territory it rarely ignores you. It doesn't make sense to put huge garrisons in castles and wait for the AI to attack. That is a huge waste of money. I agree that putting decent garrisons along your borders helps a bit to discourage AI attack but it isn't everything.

The only time camping armies are annoying are some Mongols but more often Timurids as they seem to travel in 10 army groups. However that means they will often siege with 2+ stacks and attack even against a full stack garrison. If only 1 army of a 10 army group lays siege though you need night fighter or to send a night fighter for relief. The AI strategy is good except for the amount of debt it causes itself.

[Andytheplatypus]

At OP:

My tactics are pretty simple for taking settlements.

Since my armies are the same whether I'm attacking a field army or a settlement I try to keep casualties low.

1. If you have catapults or trebuches use them to punch holes in the walls. With enough holes they ai will pull all forces back to the town square. This can lead to a bloody final assault but atleast you can use all of your forces against them. Don't be afraid to pull up your siege engines into the cities and use archers to barrage them.

2. If you do no have any throwing engines i prefer to get about 4-6 siege towers fill them with my best heavy infantry and push the ai off the walls. Then I will put archers on the walls immediately after to barrage the AI units from above while infantry engage from below

[Ghost_loy]

Easiest way to avoid the bloodbath is to avoid the siege. I always starve the enemy out. The only time I actually fight a siege is if I have time constraints, for example if enemy reinforcements are coming. Slow and steady wins the race. Also remember that if the enemy has 3-4 towns left total you can siege all of them with about 3/4s of the enemies size and you should be able to starve them all out before they sally, in which case you can make a stand or retreat, either way you've severely damaged there units, and can pick up the siege again if needed.

If I do need to assault I purchase mercenaries and use them to scale the walls or rush through the oil. Mercenaries are expendable as far as I'm concerned, I've even used them to soak up arrows, peasants can be used for that as well. Sending peasants before your main force to soak up the tower arrows can be useful, just remember to make them spread out.