Good Orcs, Werewolves, and Vampires.... OH MY!!!

[Ceasar Gubius]

Ok, these are just things I was pondering on a few questions... Perhaps somebody lore-smart could enlighten me ....

1st. After the demise of Sauron, what happened to the Orcs, Trolls, or Wargs? They were freed from his will, so could they become good eventually? Maybe not even good, just out for their own preservation! Maybe start a new culture NOT centered around the Dark Lord... I'm sure they had heroes of their own... Just a thought, but would this be Lore heresy?

2nd. Werewolves, Tolkien mentions them few times as servants of Sauron. I could go into the lore, but I hate rewriting all of that lol! They were in the story of Beren and Luthien, AND Gandalf tells Frodo in the fellowship that they servived into the 3rd Age... But I don't know if the could take the form of men, only they could stand like them lol... Where were they in the 3rd Age?

3rd. Vampires!!! They were at the Battle of Five Armies, and Tolkien mentions them too a few times... But were they just bats or what? I like the idea of really pale elves myself BUT some might not lol.... Any thoughts?

I just wanted to see the debate from these Brain teasers

[smoesville]

Ok, these are just things I was pondering on a few questions... Perhaps somebody lore-smart could enlighten me ....

1st. After the demise of Sauron, what happened to the Orcs, Trolls, or Wargs? They were freed from his will, so could they become good eventually? Maybe not even good, just out for their own preservation! Maybe start a new culture NOT centered around the Dark Lord... I'm sure they had heroes of their own... Just a thought, but would this be Lore heresy?

Sauron isn't technically the original dark lord so they would never really be free to be anything but evil until after the last battle and the death of morgoth.

2nd. Werewolves, Tolkien mentions them few times as servants of Sauron. I could go into the lore, but I hate rewriting all of that lol! They were in the story of Beren and Luthien, AND Gandalf tells Frodo in the fellowship that they servived into the 3rd Age... But I don't know if the could take the form of men, only they could stand like them lol... Where were they in the 3rd Age?

I believe that Wargs are the descendants of them since they could speak at least in a tongue recognisable to goblins and others.

3rd. Vampires!!! They were at the Battle of Five Armies, and Tolkien mentions them too a few times... But were they just bats or what? I like the idea of really pale elves myself BUT some might not lol.... Any thoughts?

Never heard about them?

[The Mouth]

1. The evil creatures of middle earth would never become "Good" they would have simply gone back to raiding and looting the country side or hiding in the dark places of Middle-Earth

2. The werewolves were created by putting spirits of fallen Maiar (And some think orcs and at least Sauron could transform into one) into the bodies of wolves... I'm not exactly sure were they went to after the fall of morgoth... Probably hiding much like one of the Balrogs did in Moria. And no they couldn't turn into men.

3. I don't really know much about vampires but I know they were in middle earth, I'll look them up and edit this post if I find anything EDIT: Well I looked them up and they are described as "Bat like creatures" So they weren't humanoid but thats pretty much all we know and only one was ever named Thuringwethil (Also Sauron could turn into a vampire before he lost his power to change forms). Heres a piece of info I found on ThuringWethil on the
Lotr wiki "was wont to fly in vampire's form to Angband; and her great fingered wings were barbed at each joint's end with an iron claw." -The Silmarillion" She was the herald of Sauron apparently.

[TWWolfe]

The Werewolves were more like very big, very mean Wolves. If anyone has read Sojourn, they're basically like Caroak. Very Strong, Very smart versions of regular wargs. They didn't walk on two feet of shift between human and wolf form. I would guess that after the Fall of Morgoth and the destruction of beleriand, the few that were left basically interbred with Wargs, producing some very mean wargs, but none that came close to the originals.The few that were left after all that time probably ended up hiding in out of the way places, so they weren't a real great threat.

And the Vampires were even rarer, perhaps being more like sorcerers who changed into bat-like creatures rather than thier own unique race. The ones at the battle of Five armies were likely a few vampire bat-type creatures leading the regular evil bats.

As for the Orcs/trolls, after Sauron died most of them that were directly guided by him were rendered helpless, especially once the protection he gave them from the sun dissipated. The trolls were basically reduced to the equivalent of cattle of turned to stone, depending on what type they were. As to the Orcs that were left, a few survived, but they were reduced to a minor goblin race with nothing more than remnants of their former power.

[AragornElessar]

You guys suggest Orcs in Gondorian Armor?

Well i don't think any nation wanted orcs in their land nor as Citizen nor as Soldier.

I am sure they were some great chieftains of orcs who would maybe make a great tribe after the dead of sauron but thats it. They won't help humans elves dwarves as they most likely hate them

[Lux]

We're in the Fourth Age irl.
See any orcs?

[Narkaz]

We're in the Fourth Age irl.
See any orcs?

When I look at some people I start to doubt

I've always wondered how orcs and uruks reproduce. I've only seen in the movies at Isengard uruk-hai emerging from giant embryos. But I've never seen a, ugh, female orc or uruk, so how exactly do they make more?

I ask because the orcs in my campaign just keep coming... stack spam after stack spam... endless hordes of orcs. Where do they find them?

Since orcs where originally elves I would imagine they reproduce in the same way elves do, about what you see in the movie, that's not Tolkien's but Peter Jackson's imagination.

[KnightsTemplar]

We're in the Fourth Age irl.
See any orcs?

IIRC FO ended at AD 1.
And the Fifth Age lasted until sometime in the Middle Ages, and thus come the Sixth Age.
Sixth age ended at 1945, with Hitler overthrown(the Ages usually ended with a great evil defeated, FA Morgoth, SA Sauron, and TA Sauron again).
And now it's the Seventh Age

The Fourth Age, was the ending of the time of the Eldar and other races, which passed into myths...
And thus come the Days of the Men.

[RongoMatane]

IIRC FO ended at AD 1.
[...]
The Fourth Age, was the ending of the time of the Eldar and other races, which passed into myths...
And thus come the Days of the Men.

So basically all elves, dwarves and orcs died when jesus was born?

and...there were elves with the early roman empire and the greeks?

[Incan]

not to be the fun killer but search in the tolkien general discussion thread there was many a heated debate about werewolves in the third age

[KnightsTemplar]

So basically all elves, dwarves and orcs died when jesus was born?

and...there were elves with the early roman empire and the greeks?

Ages of Arda, recorded, usually lasted (few) thousands of years.
Somehow the great Kingdom of Men, Reunited Kingdom of Gondor and Arnor managed to fail and fall into pieces with nothing left.
It's basically 'restart' in most of the various myths, like all the technology and monuments and things are lost.
It suits Tolkien's thought though, that what the God gave was the best. By time advance, the blessing fades, and people fails.
And thus, not all changes are good. By the 'God's blessing', pretty means 'natural'.

Well, off-topic.
Through out the years...... the old realms fades into myths, which was recorded in the Book of Westmarch so it wasn't lost.
And they slowly passed away in the first thousand years pretty much.
And that was the beginning of new civilization and the end of the old.
And those times which the human civilization haven't developed very well that they know everything.
So there can still be Elves in the deep forest, Dwarves under the mountains as secret people.

[GondorCaptain]

I've always wondered how orcs and uruks reproduce. I've only seen in the movies at Isengard uruk-hai emerging from giant embryos. But I've never seen a, ugh, female orc or uruk, so how exactly do they make more?

I ask because the orcs in my campaign just keep coming... stack spam after stack spam... endless hordes of orcs. Where do they find them?

[delta289]

to help answer your Orc question:

now, i honestly have not read the books but if the Return of The King is anything like it is in the book (with the exception of The Shire becoming industiralized and secretly being ruled by Saruman), then most of the orcs would have died after Barad Durr's colaps. in the movie, you can see the Orcs running for their lives as Barad Dur, The Black Gate, and the ground beneath them, begins to fall apart orund them. i saw that most of the orcs fell in the crevas but you can see in the corner of the screen that a few of them managed to escape. as to where the survivers went, i have no clue. perhaps they went to occupy the now open plains of Harad, seeiing that most of the Harad nation was destroyed at the battle of pelanore fields.

[Vlax]

Most of harad's army has been destroyed... I'm sure they still had people left in their towns and cities.

[StealthFox]

I don't think we can be certain that orcs and other such "evil" creatures could never become "good." I think Tolkien suggested some possibility for redemption as it is offered to Saruman, Wormtongue, and possibly suggested of Gollum, the Balrog, the WitchKing, and by extension the other Nazgul.

On Orcs:
They would be Morgoth’s greatest Sins, abuses of his highest privilege, and would be creatures begotten of Sin, and naturally bad (I nearly wrote ’irredeemably bad’; but that would be going too far. Because by accepting or tolerating their making - necessary to their actual existence - even Orcs would become part of the World, which is God’s and ultimatly good.)-Letter #153 [Emphasis added]

"It is true, of course, that Morgoth held the Orcs in dire thraldom, for in their corruption they had almost lost all possibility of resisting the domination of his will. So great indeed did the pressure on them become ere Angband fell that, if he turned his thought towards them, they were conscious of his ’eye’ wherever they might be...this servitude to a central will that reduced the Orcs to an almost ant-like life was seen even more plainly in the Second and Third Age under the tyranny of Sauron, Morgoth’s chief Lieutenant." - HoME X: Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed

But even before this wickedness of Morgoth was suspected the Wise in the Elder Days taught always that the Orcs were not 'made' by Melkor, and therefore were not in their origin evil. They might have become irredeemable (at least by Elves and Men), but they remained within the Law. That is, that though of necessity, being the fingers of the hand of Morgoth, they must be fought with the utmost severity, they must not be dealt with in their own terms of cruelty and treachery. Captives must not be tormented, not even to discover information for the defence of the homes of Elves and Men. If any Orcs surrendered and asked for mercy, they must be granted it, even at a cost. This was the teaching of the Wise, though in the horror of the War it was not always heeded. - HoME X, Morgoth's Ring [Emphasis added]

Also, do not forget about the rare glimpse of Orcs in Return of the King. Shagrat and Gorbag just wanted to get away from all the "big bosses."

On Saruman:
'Think well, Saruman! Will you not come down?"'
A shadow passed over Saruman's face; then it went deathly white. Before he could conceal it, they saw through the mask the anguish of a mind in doubt, loathing to stay and dreading to leave its refuge. For a second he hesitated, and no one breathed. Then he spoke, and his voice was shrill and cold. Pride and hate were conquering him. - "The Voice of Saruman", TTT

On Wormtongue:
'Wormtongue!' called Frodo. 'You need not follow him. I know of no evil you have done to me. You can have rest and food here for a while, until you are stronger and can go your own ways.'
Wormtongue halted and looked back at him, half prepared to stay. - The Scouring of the Shire, RotK

On Gollum:
I cannot find the exact text, but it happens on the approach to Cirith Ungol I believe.

Balrog:
"You cannot pass... I am a servant of the secret fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun. Go back to the Shadow! You shall not pass!" - Gandalf "The Bridge of Khazad-dum," FotR [Emphasis added]

On the Witch-King:
'You cannot enter here,' said Gandalf, and the huge shadow halted. 'Go back to the abyss prepared for you! Go back! Fall into the nothingness that awaits you and your Master. Go!' - Gandalf [Emphasis added]

This doesn't mean the Balrog, Witch-King, and the other Nazgul had free will or could be redeemed, but Gandalf offers it nonetheless, which leaves the possibility open.

For Orcs, it looks like Tolkien left the possibility open for redemption, but it is certainly a tricky subject.

[Scythion]

Redemption through death.

[A Goon of Sparta]

When morgoth created orcs he made them desire chaos and destruction. Its already part of them to be evil.

[Ceasar Gubius]

I have to say, I like Stealth Fox's interpretation on Orcs the best. I think it's in more keeping with Tolkien, and Tolkien's life philosiphies more than anything. Tolkien was a very religious man, and many of his morals were put into the LotR. Redemption is one of those morals that constantly shows itself troughout the story! As for orcs being naturally evil, I don't agree. They were not created by Morgoth, but yet mutated Elves... So their purpose may have been evil, BUT they may have had that shimmer of good in them...

On a more pratical note, at Saurons demise, many of the Orcs fled into he mountains or old tribes throughout Mordor, and pretty much eaked out a life with self-preservation. I'm sure that any of the good races would have just as soon killed them on spot...So they wouldn't really be evil as much as they'd be simple/barbaric. Same would apply to Uruks, Trolls, and Goblins...

As for werewolves, it's mentioned they could stand on two legs, just not transform into humans... It would make sense that wargs may be realated. Either way its fun to ponder...

[trueblaze]

For the orcs if I had to venture a guess, I'd say most would continue their looting killing pilaging life styles. However, with out some dark overlord's protection slash beting them into submission, I could see maybe a few groups attempting to settle down and try to act "civilized". Though I'm sure most of those would quickly fail as they either fall back into their old ways or end up being killed by human patrols or other orcs. Even if one did some how manage to survive, it would be many generations before they out grew their more savage ways.

So in short, it's possible they could become good over time, but odds are they wouldn't last long enough to give it a shot.

[Ceasar Gubius]

For the orcs if I had to venture a guess, I'd say most would continue their looting killing pilaging life styles. However, with out some dark overlord's protection slash beting them into submission, I could see maybe a few groups attempting to settle down and try to act "civilized". Though I'm sure most of those would quickly fail as they either fall back into their old ways or end up being killed by human patrols or other orcs. Even if one did some how manage to survive, it would be many generations before they out grew their more savage ways.

So in short, it's possible they could become good over time, but odds are they wouldn't last long enough to give it a shot.

Yeah, I could see that... It would be a great idea for some Fourth Age factions, a couple of disconected orc clans...

@ Knights Templer: I don't see why not... I mean what about the areas NOT covered in the usual map of middle Earth. BEYOND the usual borders... Maybe all new continents!!!