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  1. #1
    krazykarl's Avatar Tech Monkey
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    Default Hamas needs to grow up.

    This thread was inspired by this article I read

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...International/


    Really what did they expect? all the money that is being cut off is AID, the west is GIVING money to the Palestinians, they are not earning it, they have no right to it. It is a gift, and Hamas fails to realize, like a whiney teenager, that if you want our money for free, you have to live by our rules. Do they seriously think that they are justifed getting all pissy because the free money fountain gets turned off because they are being difficult. If they really dont want to recognize Israel or denounce violence that badly, they should realize that they need to legitimately EARN thier money.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    What Hamas needs to realize that they can't pretend that Israel doesn’t exist or preach about the destruction of Israel, because neither is true. Israel has both the power to wage peace and war. Hamas must not follow the path of the PLO and waiting till in the early 90's to finally recognize Israel and renounce terrorism. If it is to have any international legitimacy, Hamas must learn to take what it can get. It’s not going to accomplish anything by demanding Israel do this or that. Beggars can be choosers. Or better put by Thomas L. Friedman, Israel is the guy on subway who has the seat, and Palestine is the old lady hitting him repeatedly to try and get part of the seat. After awhile the women ceases to hitting the man and instead negotiates as to how much of the seat she CAN get. Israel was smart enough when it was founded to take what it could get. The Palestinians could use some of this logic instead of launching suicide bombers.
    Last edited by Major.Stupidity; April 01, 2006 at 12:48 PM.
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  3. #3
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    true true..

    HAMAS cant have it both ways.

    its the same for iran (in different way of course..)

  4. #4

    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    I hope that Hamas will be FORCED into becoming moderate, or become moderate on its own volition. That would bode well for the Palestinian people
    "I will call them my people,
    which were not my people;
    and her beloved,
    which was not beloved"
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    I agree. The problem is you're looking at it from a western point of view, which Hamas are not. The Palistinians have no army and are being pushed out of their homes, while Israel has an organised army, and enough money to support it's citizens. Hamas is viewed by the Palistinians as their own army, and we see them as terrorists. We have two different points of view, and you must understand that they see Hamas as basicly freedom fighters, and are in their eyes, anything but terrorists.

    Peace,
    Adnan

  6. #6

    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by MasterAdnin
    I agree. The problem is you're looking at it from a western point of view, which Hamas are not. The Palistinians have no army and are being pushed out of their homes, while Israel has an organised army, and enough money to support it's citizens. Hamas is viewed by the Palistinians as their own army, and we see them as terrorists. We have two different points of view, and you must understand that they see Hamas as basicly freedom fighters, and are in their eyes, anything but terrorists.

    Peace,
    Adnan
    Yes yes and Nazi stormtroopers were heroes and freedom fighters to the volk of Deutschland ja?

    And of course, controlling all media which encourages suicide bombing starting at 1 month old, and the total destruction of the Jewish state, would have nothing to do with why people feel this way right?

    We don't have to look at it from their point of view. Their point of view is corrupted.

    The real problem here is that the aggressor countries in Israel's wars of the last century refused to let their populations back in, thus creating a "Palestinian refugee problem" and the Palestinians refuse to integate piecemeal, instead demanding total access to Israel thus demographically ovverunning them and turning Israel into a Muslim state.

    Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, etc. are laughing themselves silly that former Egyptians, lebanese, etc. are now considered "Palestinians" whose ire is directed at Israel, not at their own governments that sold them out to create a thorn in Israel's side.
    Last edited by crazyj; April 02, 2006 at 09:59 PM.


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  7. #7

    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyj
    Yes yes and Nazi stormtroopers were heroes and freedom fighters to the volk of Deutschland ja?

    And of course, controlling all media which encourages suicide bombing starting at 1 month old, and the total destruction of the Jewish state, would have nothing to do with why people feel this way right?
    Thats an extreme example, and I fail to see how it applys.
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Major.Stupidity
    Thats an extreme example, and I fail to see how it applys.
    Sorry, poorly articulated point.

    I meant that is doesn't matter what some people in Palestine think of Hamas. Doesn't change what they are, so its not really a "problem."


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  9. #9
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    well the palestinians havent been kicked out of anywhere, actually.

    They just chose to attack and fight the israelis...

    They bring these things upon themselves.

  10. #10
    Tostig's Avatar -
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    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    I'm rather amused by Israel's stance that Hamas are terrorists and so they won't negotiate with them, given the history of Irgun and Lehi in Israeli politics.
    Last edited by Tostig; April 01, 2006 at 11:56 AM.
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  11. #11
    ErikinWest's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    well the palestinians havent been kicked out of anywhere, actually.

    They just chose to attack and fight the israelis...

    They bring these things upon themselves.
    What the hell are you talking about?!! Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens and CANNOT buy land/property on Israeli territory (which was there home). From 1948, they have been pushed to the fringes of the Palestinian territory.

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  12. #12
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikinWest
    What the hell are you talking about?!! Palestinians aren't Israeli citizens and CANNOT buy land/property on Israeli territory (which was there home). From 1948, they have been pushed to the fringes of the Palestinian territory.

    Erik
    ..because they decided to fight instead of accept.

    Quote Originally Posted by internationalist
    Yeah, I agree. Personally, I think that the Israelis should just invade the rest of the middle east and turn it into a colony for white, European/American peoples. The rest of the people living there are just terrorists anyway.










    (sarcasm)
    No idea how you got that out of what i said...should i bother trying to say something back? nah..your not worth it.

    --------------

    Hamas need to stop their terrorist, two faced ways if they want 'peace' and any negotiating power.

    Israel have been prepared to negotiate so many times over the past but the palestinians have always been there to screw it by blowing people up. (e.g a few years back, israel pulled their troops back for negotiations the palestinians all like 'we want peace!' then israel gets bombed around 7 times (thats just the ones covered by the news..dunno if thats all of them) before israel eventually sees theres no negotiation going on, and back to square one it goes - israel actually showed incredible restraint during all but the last of these bombings..but hey, how long are you going to sit back and allow a bunch of upstart terrorists to attack you? America wouldnt, nobody else would either.

    This has happened every time.

    the most recent one: israel pulls back and allows so many palestinian demands, hamas and co. say theres a chance for peace if they do. Israel pulls back, palestinians move in - hamas claims victory through strength of arms and that it will continue to fight israel until it is annihilated.

    Back to square one.

    This goes on over and over again..and its the palestinians that cause it everytime.

    Sorry if i dont really have sympathies for them, they bring most of these problems upon themselves.
    Last edited by Carach; April 02, 2006 at 05:04 AM.

  13. #13
    Valentin the II's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    Ok sory, I was wrong.
    We just started lerning about Israel in the 30's at school and till now all "fighting" organizations were difensive not ofensive.
    Anyway the Palestinians (and partly the brits) started this whole mess:
    After the Tarpat incident in wich more then 60 jews were slaughterd (literely) and others driven from theyr homes the British comitie has blaymed the jews for buying to much land and preasurising the palestinians. Beeng embaraced by the desision of the ferst comitie the British goverment sent a second one wich confermed the ferst comitie.
    This not only prooved the stupidity and incompitance of the british goverment but also its growing support for the palestinians.
    These actions just incouraged the palestinians and their terorist organizations.
    After some time (well a preaty long time) the british have decided to break their promis and give the palestinians Israel living the jews stranded :wavecry .
    And they did promis to give part of Israel to the jews in "Hazharat Balfurd" (I forgot how its called in english).
    So these unfair actions were the ones that provoked the Israely hostility.
    And realy, such treatury should not be forgiven.

    EDIT: Im totaly with you carach. :yes
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    In contrast to the efforts of tiny Israel to make contributions to the world so as to better mankind, one has to ask what have those who have strived to eliminate Israel from the face of the earth done other than to create hate and bloodshed.

  14. #14
    Tostig's Avatar -
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    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin the II
    Ok sory, I was wrong.
    We just started lerning about Israel in the 30's at school and till now all "fighting" organizations were difensive not ofensive.
    Anyway the Palestinians (and partly the brits) started this whole mess:
    After the Tarpat incident in wich more then 60 jews were slaughterd (literely) and others driven from theyr homes the British comitie has blaymed the jews for buying to much land and preasurising the palestinians. Beeng embaraced by the desision of the ferst comitie the British goverment sent a second one wich confermed the ferst comitie.
    This not only prooved the stupidity and incompitance of the british goverment but also its growing support for the palestinians.
    These actions just incouraged the palestinians and their terorist organizations.
    After some time (well a preaty long time) the british have decided to break their promis and give the palestinians Israel living the jews stranded :wavecry .
    And they did promis to give part of Israel to the jews in "Hazharat Balfurd" (I forgot how its called in english).
    So these unfair actions were the ones that provoked the Israely hostility.
    And realy, such treatury should not be forgiven.

    EDIT: Im totaly with you carach. :yes
    On August 14, 1929, 6,000 Jews marched in Tel Aviv chanting "The Wall is ours". The next day, hundreds of Jews, including Betar members armed with batons, demonstrated at the Wall.

    Rumors and leaflets, some apparently prepared in advance, declared that the Jews were preparing to take control of the holy places and that Muslims should come to Jerusalem to defend them. On Friday, August 16, 1929, after an inflammatory sermon, a demonstration organized by the Supreme Muslim Council, marched to the Wall and proceeded to burn prayer books and supplicatory notes left in the Wall's cracks. Responding to the Jewish protests, the acting High Commissioner Harry Luke answered that "no prayer books had been burnt but only pages of prayer books". The riots continued, and the next day one Jew was killed in the Bukharan Quarter. His funeral was turned into a political demonstration.

    On August 20, Haganah leaders proposed to provide defense for 600 Jews of the Old Yishuv in Hebron or help them evacuate, but the community leaders declined these offers, insisting that they trust the A'yan (Arab leadership) to protect them.

    The next Friday, August 23, 1929, Arabs, inflamed by false rumors that two Arabs had been killed by Jews started a murderous attack on Jews in the Old City. The violence quickly spread to other parts of the Palestine, Arab policemen often joining the mobs.

    Throughout Palestine British authorities had only 292 policemen, fewer than 100 soldiers, six armored cars, and five or six aircraft.

    While a number of Jews were being killed at the Jaffa Gate, British policemen did not open fire. By August 24, 17 Jews were killed in the Jerusalem area.

    The worst atrocities occurred in Hebron and Safed, where massacres of Jews occurred. In Hebron, Arab mobs killed 67 Jews and wounded many others. The lone British policeman in the town, Raymond Cafferata, was overwhelmed and the reinforcements he called for did not arrive for 5 hours (leading to bitter recriminations).

    Cafferata later testified that:

    "On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child's head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut, but on seeing me he tried to aim the stroke at me, but missed; he was practically on the muzzle of my rifle. I shot him low in the groin. Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as a[n Arab] police constable named Issa Sherif from Jaffa in mufti. He was standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand. He saw me and bolted into a room close by and tried to shut me out-shouting in Arabic, "Your Honor, I am a policeman." ... I got into the room and shot him."

    Most of the other Jews survived by hiding with their Arab neighbors. The surviving Jews were evacuated from the town.

    During the week of riots, the fatalities were:

    * Killed: 133 Jews, 116 Arabs.
    * Wounded: 339 Jews, 232 Arabs.

    The Jews were mostly killed by Arabs, while the Arabs were mostly killed by British-commanded police and soldiers.

    On September 1, Sir John Chancellor condemned "the atrocious acts committed by bodies of ruthless and bloodthirsty evildoers... murders perpetrated upon defenseless members of the Jewish population... accompanied by acts of unspeakable savagery."
    British comitie has blaymed the jews for buying to much land and preasurising the palestinians.
    Now that my friend is to put is quite frankly a bloody load of bollucks.
    A commission of enquiry lead by Sir Walter Shaw took public evidence for several weeks. The main conclusions of the Commission were as follows. [Material not in brackets is verbatim.]

    The outbreak in Jerusalem on the 23rd of August was from the beginning an attack by Arabs on Jews for which no excuse in the form of earlier murders by Jews has been established.
    [The disturbances] took the form, in the most part, of a vicious attack by Arabs on Jews accompanied by wanton destruction of Jewish property. A general massacre of the Jewish community at Hebron was narrowly averted. In a few instances, Jews attacked Arabs and destroyed Arab property. These attacks, though inexcusable, were in most cases in retaliation for wrongs already committed by Arabs in the neighbourhood in which the Jewish attacks occurred.
    The only thing which you could possibly hold as Palestinian-loving by the British government is
    The fundamental cause ... is the Arab feeling of animosity and hostility towards the Jews consequent upon the disappointment of their political and national aspirations and fear for their economic future. ... The feeling as it exists today is based on the twofold fear of the Arabs that by Jewish immigration and land purchases they may be deprived of their livelihood and in time pass under the political domination of the Jews.
    Altogether 195 Arabs and 34 Jews were sentenced by the courts for crimes related to the 1929 riots. Death sentences were handed down to 17 Arabs and 2 Jews, but these were later commuted to long prison terms except in the case of 3 Arabs who were hanged. Large collective fines were imposed on about 25 Arab villages or urban neighborhoods. Some financial compensation was paid to persons who lost family members or property.

    source
    _________________
    And they did promis to give part of Israel to the jews in "Hazharat Balfurd"
    The Balfour Declaration of 1917 merely stated that
    "His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
    Which was in itself seen as contradicting the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, which states that
    Great Britain is prepared to recognize and uphold the independence of the Arabs in all the regions lying within the frontiers proposed by the Sharif of Mecca.
    Garbarsardar has been a dapper chap.

  15. #15
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valentin the II
    Anyway the Palestinians (and partly the brits) started this whole mess:
    this point gets on my nerves, schools dont teach history properly.

    You cant just cut off sections of history, it is continuous, and to find out the reasons for something you must go into the background.

    i shall go from ancient times.

    Modern day israel was part of the persian empire, taken by alexander -> Successors -> Romans -> Islamic factions (through jihad, actually an unprovoked invasion of europe..)

    During the time from the persian rule to the romans, the ancient religions 'died out'. Christianity became the religion of europe.

    During most of these periods jews and their ancestors actually lived in and around it.

    Muslims take it over, christians are like 'OMG CRUSADE!' etc..we crusade, take it back, lose it again (bear in mind europe are very weak during this period).

    Muslims continue to hold it for some time even though their empire was crumbling.
    Ottoman empire destroyed by Britain in ww1.

    Many areas of ex-ottoman rule become french/british mandates.
    This goes on through ww2.

    Britain are massively weak after ww2 (for obvious reasons), UN actually had control of the mandates and gave them to the jews (after millions of them got exterminated in europe FYI), its not a jewish only country, go there and you will find its pretty damn multicultural - not a nation full of funny hat jew people.

    So, after looking at this simplified history, You will see the area was actually rightfully christian or jew. Not palestinian, muslim or otherwise.

    They were handed back the nation of their own that they lost a long, long time ago. Everyone around them declare war, attack them, and get beaten.

    I cannot see how it is britain's fault here, we didnt create the problems of thousands of years previous, that still continues to play a big part in the middle east's bloodshed today.

    ---

    Nothing against you btw, i jsut get fed up of narrowminded teachers (they were the same in my school..like ive said a few times, one even pretty much blamed britain for the holocaust..sheesh..)

  16. #16
    sephodwyrm's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    When Hamas becomes more powerful and significant, people will negotiate with them.
    I agree that they need to grow, but most importantly they need to grow powerful.
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  17. #17
    Carach's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by sephodwyrm
    When Hamas becomes more powerful and significant, people will negotiate with them.
    I agree that they need to grow, but most importantly they need to grow powerful.
    what?

    HAMAS need to stop their terrorist ways, thats the whole problem seph.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carach
    what?

    HAMAS need to stop their terrorist ways, thats the whole problem seph.
    Yeah, I agree. Personally, I think that the Israelis should just invade the rest of the middle east and turn it into a colony for white, European/American peoples. The rest of the people living there are just terrorists anyway.










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  19. #19

    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    I think that recognising Israel or not doesn't change anything for the palestinian people (and Israel of course). The previous gov recognised Israel...


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  20. #20

    Default Re: Hamas needs to grow up.

    Hamas is becoming more moderate over time.
    But when it fully does, the people will just flock to some sort of new terrorist group/political party.





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