Vladimir-Suzdal

[TheAntiochus]

First of all, I have to admit that I'm really excited about this faction as I am Ukrainian/Russian. I hope they recieve a good role in the mod. I'd like to suggest that you check out the Rusichi TW mod for really high-end, accurate models of Vladimir soldiers. It should also be noted that despite having the same religion, Vladimir, Georgia, Eastern Roman Empire, etc. Should have their own high priests in a sense (Unlike Catholic factions, the Orthodox factions, despite having the exact same faith operate under different Patriaechs. Although The Patriarch of Constantinople was held in high regard and honour, he had no authority to mess with the Patriarch
of Kiev, for example.) It should also be noted that Kiev was a very major city in this universe, and at the time it was a high center of power, and was under control of the Kievan Rus' before the Mongols destroyed it. I believe Kiev should have unique buildings such as the St. Sophia cathedral. In any case, it should be noted that during this time, The Rus' states were the richest, largest, and most advanced states in Europe. In any case, I realize it's too late to note this, but the Kievan Rus' was in fact, the dominant state of the Rus' people.
Although it began its decline in the 12th century, it lastest well into the 13th century. At the start of this mod, The Rus' states operated much like the European Union, but it was under more control from the Kievan seat of power. Novgorod controlled valuable trade routes, and at the start of this mod, it operated like an oligarchy, and even had its own archbishop, but it was not fully independent. Vladimir-Suzdal was exactly the same. A somewhat-independent state. But it most certainly did not control the Rus' lands, and if you had to historically pick a nation to represent the Rus' states in the mod, Kievan Rus' would have to be it. Anyways, sorry if I wrote too much

[Alejandro Sanchez]

It should also be noted that despite having the same religion, Vladimir, Georgia, Eastern Roman Empire, etc. Should have their own high priests in a sense (Unlike Catholic factions, the Orthodox factions, despite having the exact same faith operate under different Patriaechs. Although The Patriarch of Constantinople was held in high regard and honour, he had no authority to mess with the Patriarch of Kiev, for example.)

In BC 3 these factions have Orthodox Christianity: Roman Empire, Georgia, Vladimir-Suzdal Principality, Alania.
There is a term Autocephaly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocephaly). In BC times only Roman Empire and Georgia have autocephalous Orthodox church. Rus' have only metropolis of Constantinoply Patriarchy, and Metropolitan of Rus' (in Kiev) appointed by Constantinoply Patriarch, and he is "Greek". Your words are wrong.

At the start of this mod, The Rus' states operated much like the European Union, but it was under more control from the Kievan seat of power.
Novgorod controlled valuable trade routes, and at the start of this mod, it operated like an oligarchy, and even had its own archbishop, but it was not fully independent.
Vladimir-Suzdal was exactly the same. A somewhat-independent state. But it most certainly did not control the Rus' lands, and if you had to historically pick a nation to represent the Rus' states in the mod, Kievan Rus' would have to be it.

It's not quite true. You ever heard that the states of EU were fighting each other? In BC times Rus' is not a centralized and unified state. If you know in 1097 yet on Council of Liubech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Liubech) Knyazes of Rus' decided to inherit the lands of their fathers, that is officially divided the country and abolished the pre-existing principle of inheritance of throne of Kiev (Lestvichnoe pravo - http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%...B0%D0%B2%D0%BE).
Kiev was the capital of Rus' but only formally, and Kievskaya Zemlya - Kievan Land (the term Kievan Rus' is incorrect for XII-XIII c.) was considered the major in Rus'. But again in BC times Kievan Land was just a trophy for Knyazes from other lands. In BC 3 times most powerfull sides in Rus' is: Svyatoslav III Vsevolodovich from Chernigov Land, Mstislavichi brothers from Rostov Land and Yuirievichi brothers from Suzdal Land. Other lands of Rus' have not been put on the map of BC 3.

What do you mean by "not fully independent" of Novgorod Land and Vladimir-Suzdal?

[Ichon]

I think he means Novgorod and others sometimes paid tribute or had rulers installed by the other lands though I think Vladimir Suzdal emerged as the strongest land before the Mongols reduced the Rus for a couple centuries.

[Alejandro Sanchez]

I think he means Novgorod and others sometimes paid tribute or had rulers installed by the other lands...

In general all the lands of Rus' was ruled by the descendants of one dynasty - Ryurikovichi. All of them originally conceived as co-rulers of one country, but the family grew, and almost every member wished to rule. Began as a result of the war for throne in Kiev and war in general for the princely throne in any land of Rus.
Despite the differences and hatred, all the Knyazes of the dynasty to remember that they are of the one family, and relations between them were equal. Formally Knyaz of Kievan Land was considered as major, but in fact every other land in XII-XIII c., has been independent. Vassal relations between the Knyazes were not, as all were considered equal and brothers. When one Knyaz was trying to force to subdue the other (make a vassal, for example), it aroused widespread condemnation. Such attempts were, but the institution of vassalage in Rus' was not.
Especially Kiev in XII-XIII was not the suzerain of any land, сonversely Knyazes of other "minor" lands conquered the capital. In BC times Новгородьскыя земля - Novgorod Land and Суждальская земля - Suzdal Land was independent.

...though I think Vladimir Suzdal emerged as the strongest land before the Mongols reduced the Rus for a couple centuries.

Yes, one of the strongest

[Ichon]

In general all the lands of Rus' was ruled by the descendants of one dynasty - Ryurikovichi. All of them originally conceived as co-rulers of one country, but the family grew, and almost every member wished to rule. Began as a result of the war for throne in Kiev and war in general for the princely throne in any land of Rus.
Despite the differences and hatred, all the Knyazes of the dynasty to remember that they are of the one family, and relations between them were equal. Formally Knyaz of Kievan Land was considered as major, but in fact every other land in XII-XIII c., has been independent. Vassal relations between the Knyazes were not, as all were considered equal and brothers.

I don't have time today to find good reference but I am sure I read that Kynaz of some branches of the family deposed and placed as Kynaz closer members of their branch of the family who then sent taxes(since its the same culture and similar civilization maybe tribute is wrong word but it seems correct in some ways) to the Kynaz which was dominate over that region of the Rus. Not only was Kiev occupied and sacked by other opposing Kynaz but some other cities as well. So I'm not sure that can count as everyone was treated with respect and equal.

Otherwise I agree with you though... the different Rus lands more resembled Holy Roman Duchies which maybe sometimes warred with each other but shared language and culture and until reformation almost always united to fight outsiders. Kiev even after sack was a large city and tradition of whoever controlled Kiev was first among the princes was quite strong.

[Alejandro Sanchez]

I don't have time today to find good reference but I am sure I read that Kynaz of some branches of the family deposed and placed as Kynaz closer members of their branch of the family who then sent taxes(since its the same culture and similar civilization maybe tribute is wrong word but it seems correct in some ways) to the Kynaz which was dominate over that region of the Rus. Not only was Kiev occupied and sacked by other opposing Kynaz but some other cities as well. So I'm not sure that can count as everyone was treated with respect and equal.

I don't quite understand your words. Can U rephrase your thought