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  1. #1

    Default A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    I found a brief series of videos that synthesizes most of the looong arguments and texts written by critics on the matter in a reasonably good and short frame. Enjoy! Special thanks to youtube user "tumbleweed", yet another Thomist-(Anarcho)Libertarian, for his valuable contribution.

    Bibliography and sources for these video classes can be seen on the YouTube video description.

    Refuting Materialism (3-part video)

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    On the absurdity of Scientism and scientistic notions of so-called "objectivity":



    On Nominalism (the denial of universals) and its necessary link with Materialism; the ethical degradation and negative consequences of Radical Scientism, Skepticism and Materialism:





    Refuting ID
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    This refutes the most common errors and distortions and also synthesizes why the first cause argument fails with ID, why ID antropormorphizes God, why ID is not only unbiblical, but anti-biblical, etc.

    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  2. #2

    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    I started watching the first video, and one of the first things I hear is "There is no way the absence of anything can give rise to something". Before I continue I would like to know if 1. this claim is somehow related to the "evidence", and 2. if the evidence involves any similarly completely unfounded claims.

    I don't mean to dismiss this completely, but I would like to know if it's worth my time, or if it's just committing some of the usual fallacies people like to use in their "evidence".

  3. #3

    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    It is merely the refutation of the idea that matter can come from nothing or that the Universe came from nothing. It is a very specific argument and it's not universal among materialists.

    The main foundation to this, is the eminence of the cause. Nothing comes from nothing. Either matter is eternal, or it had an antecedent cause.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  4. #4

    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    It is merely the refutation of the idea that matter can come from nothing or that the Universe came from nothing. It is a very specific argument and it's not universal among materialists.

    The main foundation to this, is the eminence of the cause. Nothing comes from nothing. Either matter is eternal, or it had an antecedent cause.
    All of these are claims that require evidence in order to be taken as fact. You don't know that something cannot come from nothing on a universal or even infinite scale. No, we don't see things coming from nothing on a daily basis, but that does not exclude the possibility. I am even aware that this is practically demanding proof of a negative, it is just that in this case the alternatives provide no better or more simple explanation. Matter could have arisen from nothing, it could have a cause or it could be eternal, or possibly something else we haven't thought of. Since we have no evidence for or against either we can't assume or exclude any possibility.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    It is merely the refutation of the idea that matter can come from nothing or that the Universe came from nothing. It is a very specific argument and it's not universal among materialists.

    The main foundation to this, is the eminence of the cause. Nothing comes from nothing. Either matter is eternal, or it had an antecedent cause.
    That's all he attempts to argue?

    I just watched part 1 and it does seem to be heading that way, but if that's all then that's... not exactly controversial stuff.
    The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath
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  6. #6

    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankbuster View Post
    That's all he attempts to argue?

    I just watched part 1 and it does seem to be heading that way, but if that's all then that's... not exactly controversial stuff.
    Sorry if I was unclear. I was just answering a specific claim by Epicurean.

    This is in fact only part of his argumentation. The videos naturally cover all the notion of materialism.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; August 15, 2011 at 07:18 PM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  7. #7

    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    @ Jean de la Valette

    I've watched the three "Materialism has no substance" videos.

    It seems the argument does not take the structural gap between the signified (the concept) and what it refers to (the object) into account. A signifier is not the referent, meaning the word rose is not a rose. By disregarding this, one springs a linguistic trap where by an abstract object is being granted an existence on a par with the actual object.

    Have you considered this? How would you address this?

  8. #8

    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    All of these are claims that require evidence in order to be taken as fact. You don't know that something cannot come from nothing on a universal or even infinite scale.
    Do you have anything to present besides a crude and illogical empiricism? Do you know Aristotelianism enough? Have you at least watched the whole video?

    You don't know that something cannot come from nothing on a universal or even infinite scale. No, we don't see things coming from nothing on a daily basis, but that does not exclude the possibility.


    And then it's the religious who are self-contradicting!

    Why are (some) physicists so bad at philosophy?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011...d-at.html#more

    In his book of reminiscences “Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Feynman!”, Richard Feynman tells the story of a painter who assured him that he could make yellow paint by mixing together red paint and white paint. Feynman was incredulous. As an expert in the physics of light, he knew this should not be possible. But the guy was an expert painter, with years of practical experience. So, ready to learn something new, Feynman went and got some red paint and white paint. He watched the painter mix them, but as Feynman expected, all that came out was pink. Then the painter said that all he needed now was a little yellow paint to “sharpen it up a bit” and then it would be yellow.

    I was reminded of this story when I read this foray into philosophy by physics professor Ethan Siegel, which a reader sent me, asking for my reaction. Do give it a read, though I’ll summarize it for you:

    Arguments for God as cause of the universe rest on the assumption that something can’t come from nothing. But given the laws of physics, it turns out that something can come from nothing.

    Here was my reaction:

    Is this guy serious? The laws of physics aren’t “nothing.” Ergo, this isn’t even a prima facie counterexample to the principle that ex nihilo, nihil fit. That’s just blindingly obvious. Is this guy serious?

    (Actually, that was not my reaction. My actual reaction cannot be printed on a family-friendly blog. This is the cleaned up version.)

    Feynman’s painter insisted that you can get yellow paint from red paint and white paint. All you need to do is add some yellow paint. Similarly, Siegel assures us that we can get something from nothing. All we need to do is to add a little something, viz. the laws of physics. I’ll bet Siegel has read Feynman’s book and had a chuckle at the painter’s expense. Little does he realize that the joke’s on him.

    Notice that the point has nothing to do with the further question “Where do the laws of physics come from?” It has nothing to do with the debate between atheism and theism. It has nothing to do with whether Siegel’s purely scientific claims are otherwise correct. I’m not addressing any of that here. Let the operation of the laws of physics be a brute fact if you like; let atheism be true, if you insist; let Siegel be a whiz-bang crackerjack physicist, if you must. The point is that as a philosopher, he’s utterly incompetent, incapable of seeing the most blatant of fallacies staring him square in the face.

    Siegel is in good company, if that’s the right way to put it. As I showed in my review of their book The Grand Design for National Review, Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow are no more philosophically competent than Siegel is. Indeed, one of their errors is the same as Siegel’s: They tell us that “Because there is a law like gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.” Ignore for the moment the incoherence of the notion of self-causation (which we explored recently here and here). Put to one side the question of whether the physics of their account is correct. Forget about where the laws of physics themselves are supposed to have come from. Just savor the manifest contradiction: The universe comes from nothing, because a law like gravity is responsible for the universe.

    [...]


    http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2010...causa-sui.html

    The Dreaded Causa Sui

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    There is no case known (neither is it, indeed, possible) in which a thing is found to be the efficient cause of itself; for so it would be prior to itself, which is impossible.

    Summa Theologiae I.2.3

    If, then, something were its own cause of being, it would be understood to be before it had being – which is impossible…

    Summa Contra Gentiles I.22.6

    Was Aquinas mistaken? Could something be its own cause? Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow seem to think so. In their recent book The Grand Design, they tell us that “we create [the universe’s] history by our observation, rather than history creating us” and that since we are part of the universe, it follows that “the universe… create[d] itself from nothing.”

    I examine their position (and the many things that are wrong with it) in my review of the book for National Review. What is of interest for present purposes is their suggestion that future events can bring about past ones. Could this be a way of making plausible “the dreaded causa sui” (as I seem to recall John Searle once referring to the idea in a lecture)? That is to say, might a thing A possibly cause itself as long as it does so indirectly, by causing some other thing B to exist or occur in the past which in turn causes A?

    To be sure, Hawking and Mlodinow provide only the murkiest account of how their self-causation scenario is supposed to work, and do not even acknowledge, much less attempt to answer, the obvious objections one might raise against it. But one can imagine ways in which such a scenario might be developed. Suppose for the sake of argument that the doctrine of temporal parts is true. And suppose we consider various examples from science fiction of one temporal part or stage of an individual playing a role in bringing about earlier parts or stages of the same individual.

    In his 1941 short story “By His Bootstraps,” Robert Heinlein presents a tightly worked out scenario in which his protagonist Bob Wilson is manipulated by time-traveling future versions of himself into carrying out actions that put him into a series of situations in which he has to manipulate his past self in just the way he remembers having been manipulated. That is to say, temporal stage Z of Wilson causes temporal stage A of Wilson to initiate a transition through various intermediate Wilson stages which eventually loop back around to Z. In the 1952 E.C. Comics story “Why Papa Left Home” (from Weird Science #11), a time-traveling scientist stranded several decades in the past settles down to marry (and later impregnate) a girl who reminds him of the single mother who raised him, only to discover, after his abrupt and unexpected return to the present and to his horror, that she actually was his mother and that he is his own father. Doubling down on this Oedipal theme in what is probably the mother of all time travel paradoxes, Heinlein’s ingenious 1959 short story “– All You Zombies – ” features a sex-changing time-traveler (“Jane”) who turns out to be his own father and his own mother. (Don’t ask, just read it.)

    Now, if we think of each of these characters as a series of discrete temporal parts – again labeled A through Z for simplicity’s sake – then we might say that each part has a kind of independent existence. A, B, C, D, and on through Z are like the wires making up a cable, in which each wire can be individuated without reference to the others even though they also all make up the whole. The difference would be that while the wires are arranged spatially so as to make up the cable, the stages in question are arranged temporally so as to make up a person. And what we have in the science-fiction scenarios in question is just the unusual sort of case wherein some of the stages loop back on the others, just as some of the wires in a cable might loop back and be wound around the others.

    Mind you, I do not in fact think any of this is right. I do not accept the doctrine of temporal parts, and I do not think that such time travel scenarios really are possible even in principle given a sound metaphysics. (I’ll have reason to address these issues in detail in forthcoming writing projects, so stay tuned.) But as I say, we’re just granting all this for the sake of argument. And if we do, it might seem that we are describing a kind of self-causation.

    In fact we are not, at least not in the sense of “self-causation” that Aquinas is ruling out as impossible in principle. For notice that in order to make sense of the scenarios in question, we have had to treat each of the stages of the persons involved as distinct, independent existences. For instance, in “– All You Zombies –“ it is, strictly speaking, not that Jane causes herself/himself to exist so much as that the later stages of Jane cause earlier stages of Jane to exist. And since each stage is distinct from the others, we don’t really have a case of self-causation in the strict sense. For none of the stages causes itself – each is caused by other stages. The situation is analogous to the “self-motion” of animals, which Aristotle and Aquinas point out is not really inconsistent with their principle that whatever is moved is moved by another, since such “self-motion” really involves one part of an animal moving another part.

    We might also compare these scenarios to the kinds of causal series ordered per accidens that Aquinas is happy to allow might in principle regress to infinity. The stock example is a father who begets a son who in turn begets another. Each has a causal power to beget further sons that is independent of the continued activity or inactivity of any previous begetter. Contrast a causal series ordered per se, the stock example of which is a hand moving a stone with a stick. Here the stick’s power to move the stone derives from the hand, and would disappear if the hand were to stop moving. In the strictest sense, it is not the stick which moves the stone, but the hand which moves it, by means of the stick. By contrast, if Al begets Bob and Bob begets Chuck, it is Bob who begets Chuck, and in no sense Al who does it. The reason the latter, per accidens sort of causal series might in principle regress to infinity, then, is that the activity of any member does not of necessity trace to the activity of an earlier member which uses it as an instrument. But things are different with a per se casual series, in which no member other than the first could operate at all were the first not working through it. (I had reason to say more about the difference between these sorts of causal series, and about what is meant by “first” in the expression “first cause,” in this recent post.)

    Aquinas allows for the sake of argument that the universe might have had no beginning, given that the series of causes extending backward in time is ordered per accidens. When he argues for God as first cause of the world, then, he does not mean “first” in a temporal sense. His argument is rather that the universe could exist here and now, and at any particular moment, only if God is conserving it in existence, for anything less than that which is Pure Act or Being Itself could not in his view persist for an instant unless it were caused to do so by that which is Pure Act or Being Itself, to which it is related in a per se rather than per accidens way. In particular, anything which is in any way a compound of act and potency (as all compounds of form and matter are, and, more generally, as all compounds of existence and essence are) must be continually actualized by that which need not itself be actualized insofar as it is “already” Pure Actuality. (See Aquinas for the details.)

    Now every temporal part of the characters in our hypothetical science-fiction examples is relevantly like the particular moments in the history of the universe. Even if the universe had no beginning but regressed back in time to infinity, it would still have to be sustained in being at any particular moment by God. It could not at any particular moment be causing itself. And even if the temporal parts of the characters in question looped around back on themselves, they would still at any particular moment have to be sustained in being by God. They too could not at any particular moment be causing themselves. In short, the theoretical possibility of a circular temporal series would be as irrelevant to Aquinas’s point as the theoretical possibility of an infinite temporal series is. When Aquinas denies that anything can cause itself given the absurdity of a cause preceding itself, what he is most concerned to deny is, not that a cause can be prior to itself temporally (though he would deny that too), but that it can be prior to itself ontologically, that it could be more fundamental than itself in the order of what exists at any given moment, as it would have to be if it were sustaining itself in being. (And again, in any event no cause strictly exists prior to itself even temporally in the scenarios we’ve been describing; for each temporal part of the characters in question is caused by a distinct temporal part, not by itself.)

    Hence, even if the universe were (as it is not) as Robert Heinlein or Stephen Hawking describes it, it would require at any particular instant a cause distinct from it in order for it to exist at that instant. (The same would be true if we consider the universe as a single four-dimensional object. It would still be a composite of form and matter and essence and existence, and thus of act and potency, and could therefore not in principle exist were it not caused by that which is not composite in any of these ways but just is Pure Act and Being Itself.) When we carefully unpack what the scenarios would have to involve, we can see that they do not entail any sort of causa sui, nor anything that could in principle exist apart from a divine first cause.




    I am even aware that this is practically demanding proof of a negative, it is just that in this case the alternatives provide no better or more simple explanation. Matter could have arisen from nothing, it could have a cause or it could be eternal, or possibly something else we haven't thought of. Since we have no evidence for or against either we can't assume or exclude any possibility.
    Again, what kind of evidence are you talking about?
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  9. #9

    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    If somewhere in there lies evidence against the possibility of something coming from noting, could you please put it in your own words, as I failed to find it. To look at the laws of nature as "things" appears to me to be beyond merely misinformed, and tells me that you really should get your knowledge of physics from physicists, and maybe then their philosophy will make more sense.

  10. #10

    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    If a law of nature is not a "property", a "substance", a "thing", or otherwise anything of that sort, what exactly it is? Nothing?

    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  11. #11

    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    If physicists, you know those who deal with knowledge of the real world, tell us what nothing is, and that something can come from nothing, any philosopher claiming that this nothing is in fact something, and that therefore something cannot come from nothing, looks ridiculously foolish.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    Nothing can never be claimed.
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

  13. #13
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    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    I suggest you either explain this by your own words, or move it to the Philosophy forum were it can stew a bit longer.

    ~Wille
    Thorolf was thus armed. Then Thorolf became so furious that he cast his shield on his back, and, grasping his halberd with both hands, bounded forward dealing cut and thrust on either side. Men sprang away from him both ways, but he slew many. Thus he cleared the way forward to earl Hring's standard, and then nothing could stop him. He slew the man who bore the earl's standard, and cut down the standard-pole. After that he lunged with his halberd at the earl's breast, driving it right through mail and body, so that it came out at the shoulders; and he lifted him up on the halberd over his head, and planted the butt-end in the ground. There on the weapon the earl breathed out his life in sight of all, both friends and foes. [...] 53, Egil's Saga
    I must tell you here of some amusing tricks the Comte d'Eu played on us. I had made a sort of house for myself in which my knights and I used to eat, sitting so as to get the light from the door, which, as it happened, faced the Comte d'Eu's quarters. The count, who was a very ingenious fellow, had rigged up a miniature ballistic machine with which he could throw stones into my tent. He would watch us as we were having our meal, adjust his machine to suit the length of our table, and then let fly at us, breaking our pots and glasses.
    - The pranks played on the knight Jean de Joinville, 1249, 7th crusade.













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  14. #14

    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    I'm not sure if that many non-believers are really particularly advocating materialism they're really more pointing to the Bible, Torah and the Quran and pointing out that what we currently know from material science doesn't match up with what is written in there. There's no Adam and Eve, no Noahs Ark and miracles don't seem to happen.
    The wheel is spinning, but the hamster is dead.

  15. #15

    Default Re: A Basic Refutation of ID and Materialism with Aristotelianism

    See his video on universals. Basically, the Aristotelian stance is that these concepts have a real, as opposed to nominal existence. The concept is identical to reality, and the form of the object has its own degree of formal reality without having an existence as a particular. This is aristotelian realism.

    Whether or not this is plausible is discussed elsewhere, and yes, even I have my doubts. But I was just trying to present one among many interesting perspectives.

    EDIT - Part 1 here:

    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; August 16, 2011 at 10:16 AM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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