unit composition of ottoman (seljuk) armies?

[The_Nord]

Hi, I'm enjoying this mod alot! I'm playing as the seljuks of rum, and I'm just wondering if anyone here can provide me with information on how I should make historically correct armies with this faction, like infantry to cavalry ratio, how many janissary units I should field and such? Thanks alot in advance!

[Dago Red]

First off, you should have no Janissary units and certainly no Ottoman units, they are not realistic for the time frame of the mod at the beginning. At best they should be triggered late game, if at all. I believe they are all being removed for BC 3.0.

This has been the subject of great debate in these forums -- how the Turks of Rum fought, and how they were armed and armored. As a scholar of the early Crusades I can confidently tell you that the mods units are very accurate once you remove all the Janissary, Sipahi, and Ottoman units (which again are all far too early for this time period). What's left in the roster is generally units of 2 categories: Tribal Turcomans and Ghulams.

Of these, the the Turks of Rum would have been at least 75% if not 90% Turcomans with a much smaller professional ghulam force. At this time, the Turcoman tribal warriors were all pushed to the frontier with the ERE, and were the main fighting body the Rum Sultan could call on.

Most armies were 100% mounted. I know nothing of any footmen being present in large numbers during this time, and I imagine only the poorest fought this way defending or attacking fortifications.

Your elites, aside from the general body guard should be a couple units of Ghulams. Then you have some Turcoman nobles, and very good horse archers to rely on. Those frontiersmen are also very good ranged troops - along with their mounted counterparts with javelin as the main weapon. it's a funny name for a unit, but in truth, the Seljuks had motivated men like this (Turcomen) to move to the "frontier" along the borders with the Rum (the ERE) in order to create buffer states between them.

You don't have access to many Greeks or Armenians, who historically fought as mercs with the Seljuks of Rum, but the standard Anatolian axmen and spear levy are there -- they kind of count for that. Also you have those ghazis for foot fodder. But like I said, mostly the armies would be 100% mounted, and almost all horse archers of varying quality.

[The_Nord]

Well I'm at year 1392 now, and the Janissaries are believed to have been created in 1365, I'm nearing the end date of the campaign but I'm not quite finished with it so I will go on after the end date :p But thanks for your help, I'm going to use alot more cavalry from now on in field battles, and use infantry mainly for sieges. Do you know if Sipahis dismounted for sieges, or if they used their retainers as foot soldiers for that?

[Tureuki]

Sipahis and their retainers were the main body of the Ottoman armies, they were cavalry but in the sieges normally they fought dismounted.

Dago actually its for early Rum , after the Mryokephalon they established the Iqta system and Iqta forces become main body of the armies, but tribal forces continued to play an important role(actually Tribes gained iqtas too), at the following years, Seljuks started to often use mercenary forces from everwhere.

[DevrimJan]

So Ottoman units will be removed for 3.0, huh? Is this confirmed, and if so, where?

[Tureuki]

its decided long times ago

[DevrimJan]

I love the Ottoman units, perhaps they are not historical, but they are awesome, what will give the Seljuks of Rum flavor without Ottoman units?

[Tureuki]

Seljuks will have classic Seljuk units , Horse archers, Ghulams etc. plus some local troops, we will see in the future

[DevrimJan]

But the Janissary Heavy Infantry are sooooooo awesome, how can they possibly be cut out?

[Tureuki]

Historical realism and I don't like them

[DevrimJan]

HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE THEM!!!!!!!!!!!?
Also, which units will be removed, or are you not alowed to tell me the whole list?

[Dago Red]

They're cool, but their heavy foot infantry needs to be removed anyway IMO, regardless of what name they have. But that doesn't mean they can't have some heavy mounted ghulams still and doesn't mean they can't have highly skilled infantry -- just not so heavily armored. I'm fighting them in my campaigns now and they have almost all heavy infantry and horse in their army make ups with a few levies.

Not only is that unrealistic but it does nothing for game play variety. If any faction's army should be based almost entirely of fast light mounted troops, it should be the Turks of Rum! All the other factions have plenty of reasons for having heavy infantry, even their Seljuk cousins further to the east.

But what about the possibility for the player to have a kind of pre-Ottoman military reform? That is, not to have jannisaries, sipahis and "Ottoman" troops but something that befits an evolution to this military reform the Turks underwent -- something in between? There is plenty of evidence to show the Turks of Rum using more and more heavy armor and heavy infantry sometime during the 13th century. Afterall all those Sipahi's and Jannisaries didn't come out of nowhere overnight.

[boerekovic]

No heavy inf? How to counter the stacking Byzzies?

[Dago Red]

You don't need heavy infantry to counter heavy infantry.

They need more ranged machos with good AP capability, such as the "close bow" unit which I could never seem to recruit. The ERE pikemen should be fodder for Turk horse archers and all but the Vestiaritai level troops are/should be fairly vulnerable to various missiles. The Turks of Rum whittled their foes down with arrows, javelins and darts before closing into melee.