Human Cloning (the ethics discussion)

[alhoon]

I'm supprised that I found no discussion about this.

Anyway, according to wikipedia link on cloning , we have:

Therapeutic cloning (like stem cells research) and reproductive cloning (like making clones of humans).

Reproductive cloning: I believe making clones is bad, unless:
- they can enjoy the same rights as other people (no lab rats, not used for organ harvesting, not slaves, not property. Recognised as normal people)
- they are rised in surrogate families that decide when and if they break the news instead of rised in laboratories
- Their method of production guarantees they won't suffer at an early age the problems of adults; I.e. if they use my DNA when I'm 30 my clone's "age clock" isn't 15-20 years ahead of time. I.e. if I die from heart attack at 50 my clone doesn't die from an also aging heart attack at 30 just because my DNA was old.
- Their method of production is humane. I.e. not 200 dead or warped embryos for one good clone.
- Any other thing that would damage the dignity of a human that I haven't thought of was also taken care of.

NOTE: I don't think God has a problem with Cloning or that's a sin if the above are guaranteed.
However, I don't think they would be. For each couple that decides to have a clone because they can't make a kid there would be many more that would want them as "property" or "involuntary organ donors".

Therapeutic cloning:
That's trickier.
I'm pro Therapeutic cloning assuming that:
- You don't clone embryos to use the clones as tissue. That's just immoral and disgusting. You're killing kids for their cells.
I disagree with some of my friends that consider embryos of less than 3 months as "flesh".
(PS. I don't oppose abortion, I believe the parents, not just the mother, should make the choice. I think it's a big deal however that should be taken only if necessary, not because it's bad for a woman's career).

I'm all for:
- Cloning in some way organs alone for donating. I.e. I give some DNA they grow a healthy kidney for me (and ONLY a kidney, not a person even if it's an embryo) and they give me that.
- Using cloning techniques for stem cells that wouldn't create a living human creature. I.e. I don't understand exactly how Stem cells work or what they are, but if they're cells that would NOT turn to a human creature in 9 months I'm oK for their use. If they are something that would turn to a normal embryo I'm against killing the embryo for use of its cells.

[visser300]

I'm supprised that I found no discussion about this.

Anyway, according to wikipedia link on cloning , we have:

Therapeutic cloning (like stem cells research) and reproductive cloning (like making clones of humans).

Reproductive cloning: I believe making clones is bad, unless:
- they can enjoy the same rights as other people (no lab rats, not used for organ harvesting, not slaves, not property. Recognised as normal people)
- they are rised in surrogate families that decide when and if they break the news instead of rised in laboratories
- Their method of production guarantees they won't suffer at an early age the problems of adults; I.e. if they use my DNA when I'm 30 my clone's "age clock" isn't 15-20 years ahead of time. I.e. if I die from heart attack at 50 my clone doesn't die from an also aging heart attack at 30 just because my DNA was old.
- Their method of production is humane. I.e. not 200 dead or warped embryos for one good clone.
- Any other thing that would damage the dignity of a human that I haven't thought of was also taken care of.

NOTE: I don't think God has a problem with Cloning or that's a sin if the above are guaranteed.
However, I don't think they would be. For each couple that decides to have a clone because they can't make a kid there would be many more that would want them as "property" or "involuntary organ donors".

Therapeutic cloning:
That's trickier.
I'm pro Therapeutic cloning assuming that:
- You don't clone embryos to use the clones as tissue. That's just immoral and disgusting. You're killing kids for their cells.
I disagree with some of my friends that consider embryos of less than 3 months as "flesh".
(PS. I don't oppose abortion, I believe the parents, not just the mother, should make the choice. I think it's a big deal however that should be taken only if necessary, not because it's bad for a woman's career).

I'm all for:
- Cloning in some way organs alone for donating. I.e. I give some DNA they grow a healthy kidney for me (and ONLY a kidney, not a person even if it's an embryo) and they give me that.
- Using cloning techniques for stem cells that wouldn't create a living human creature. I.e. I don't understand exactly how Stem cells work or what they are, but if they're cells that would NOT turn to a human creature in 9 months I'm oK for their use. If they are something that would turn to a normal embryo I'm against killing the embryo for use of its cells.

Are clone humans? I dont think so. Human are born naturally, they are not. How the hell on earth can they have same rights with us? Do your dogs and cats have same rights with you? Human feed and slaughter millions of cows & pigs every year so I dont see any problem if they slaughter some clones to rescue human and save the world!!!

Clones could also become our slaves. Let's imagine that we can clone thousands of Paris Hilton and sell it as sex slayers. I think a lot of people are willing to buy it :p

[Boyar Son]

Are clone humans? I dont think so. Human are born naturally, they are not. How the hell on earth can they have same rights with us? Do your dogs and cats have same rights with you? Human feed and slaughter millions of cows & pigs every year so I dont see any problem if they slaughter some clones to rescue human and save the world!!!

Clones could also become our slaves. Let's imagine that we can clone thousands of Paris Hilton and sell it as sex slayers. I think a lot of people are willing to buy it :p

I'd imagine violent riots over this over morals. sex slaves...

[Col. Tartleton]

Are clone humans? I dont think so. Human are born naturally, they are not. How the hell on earth can they have same rights with us? Do your dogs and cats have same rights with you? Human feed and slaughter millions of cows & pigs every year so I dont see any problem if they slaughter some clones to rescue human and save the world!!!

Clones could also become our slaves. Let's imagine that we can clone thousands of Paris Hilton and sell it as sex slayers. I think a lot of people are willing to buy it :p

Too bad clones would be people...

Sex Slavery is immoral. Prostitution is not. There are plenty of girls who are skinny and blond and make good sex. I know several. Some of them are really nice and probably would have sex. Some are not. But they're people and you can't enslave or harvest or eat them. Not legally.

Brilliant non?

[Hilarion]

Yes cloning people would really help our overpopulation issues...

[alhoon]

Too bad clones would be people...

I hope they will be considered legaly as such. Check the replies in this thread and you'll find out that not all agree with us. Some posters consider them as artificial as a laptop it seems.

.........and immortality will be ours, we'll finally be able to colonise the stars.

why cant we clone people who are murder victims?
surely that is fair? they get to have their lives back to some degree and the families get their loved ones back.

How immortality will be ours or murder victims would get their lives back to a degree with cloning? A clone of yourself is not yourself. It's like your twin.

because we are equal citizen under the law, in the case of the aforementioned clone, its hole propose would be to increasing the life of the creator

And that would be IMO, wrong and immoral. It's 18th century morals IMO. Like saying "an african's slave whole purpose would be to work for his owner", only harsher since you rise a person up to reach adulthood and then butcher him like a sheep.

[Himster]

How immortality will be ours or murder victims would get their lives back to a degree with cloning? A clone of yourself is not yourself. It's like your twin.

Have you never seen Aeon flux?

[Mortality]

They are called clones for a reason. You clone one person ten thousand times, what are we suppose to do? I would use them to benefit mankind. Use them for a war if a large war happens (Yes, Star Warsy.) Use a few for hospital benefits. They would be able to provide blood and organs to the hospitals, possibly saving other people's lives, hell, you you possibly teach them to be doctors themselves, which would mean more heath staff to work on the patients.

[AqD]

Are clone humans? I dont think so. Human are born naturally, they are not. How the hell on earth can they have same rights with us? Do your dogs and cats have same rights with you? Human feed and slaughter millions of cows & pigs every year

Because they are stupid.

All lives should be valued by what they are - quality, rather than by birth. A brainless person has no right whatsoever even if he looks human, and an ape may be given the same rights if he's proved worthy. All humans are treated the same way isn't it? Unless there is still some country where poor people are forced to stay poor for life?


BTW everything we create is natural - bread or machines or whatever. You cannot create unnatural things by natural tools and from natural components!

[removeduser_4536284751384]

Unless there is still some country where poor people are forced to stay poor for life?

There are, unfortunately, many such countries outside our cosy little developed world.

[alhoon]

I sincerely hope you're trolling.

[Mr. Crow]

Reproductive cloning: I believe making clones is bad, unless:
- they can enjoy the same rights as other people (no lab rats, not used for organ harvesting, not slaves, not property. Recognised as normal people)
- they are rised in surrogate families that decide when and if they break the news instead of rised in laboratories
- Their method of production guarantees they won't suffer at an early age the problems of adults; I.e. if they use my DNA when I'm 30 my clone's "age clock" isn't 15-20 years ahead of time. I.e. if I die from heart attack at 50 my clone doesn't die from an also aging heart attack at 30 just because my DNA was old.
- Their method of production is humane. I.e. not 200 dead or warped embryos for one good clone.
- Any other thing that would damage the dignity of a human that I haven't thought of was also taken care of.

I believe the market determines it, humans as is, are very bad slaves, considering how efficient machines are and how cheap is labor over seas. Cloning to make medical experiments, is a rich guy wanted to make clones of himself in order to patch his body, I see it as completely moral and justified, in the same way that murder for self defense is.

- You don't clone embryos to use the clones as tissue. That's just immoral and disgusting. You're killing kids for their cells.
I disagree with some of my friends that consider embryos of less than 3 months as "flesh".

completely agree, medically and legally you are a human since conception, however if the propose of said conception was to save another life, it is again akin to murder in self defense which is totally ok.

(PS. I don't oppose abortion, I believe the parents, not just the mother, should make the choice. I think it's a big deal however that should be taken only if necessary, not because it's bad for a woman's career).

well first of all as you said above abortion is infanticide, but infanticide is justified if it permits the parent and later offspring a higher chance of success in life, it is Paul Colivaux 3rd principle of human society.

I'm all for:
- Cloning in some way organs alone for donating. I.e. I give some DNA they grow a healthy kidney for me (and ONLY a kidney, not a person even if it's an embryo) and they give me that.
- Using cloning techniques for stem cells that wouldn't create a living human creature. I.e. I don't understand exactly how Stem cells work or what they are, but if they're cells that would NOT turn to a human creature in 9 months I'm oK for their use. If they are something that would turn to a normal embryo I'm against killing the embryo for use of its cells.

that is far more reasonable practical and eventually cheap.

[Mortality]

I honestly think some clones should be used for organ use for hospitals. You know, one life for four lives.

[Himster]

I honestly think some clones should be used for organ use for hospitals. You know, one life for four lives.

So why don't you kill yourself to save others?

Society isn't developed enough to be playing god yet.

[Mortality]

So why don't you kill yourself to save others?

Society isn't developed enough to be playing god yet.

Hmm..

They are called clones for a reason.

You can also use them for war.

[Himster]

Hmm..

They are called clones for a reason.

You can also use them for war.

Sure, then we could make robots and make them fight eachother, that'd make good movie. I may base most of my decisions on star wars, but not all of them.

I know I shouldn't be condescending and quote shakespeare, but I want to, so I shall:
Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands, organs,
dimensions, senses, affections, passions; fed with
the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject
to the same diseases, heal'd by the same means,
warm'd and cool'd by the same winter and summer
as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed?
If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us,
do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?
If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that.
If a Jew wrong a Christian, what is his humility?
Revenge. If a Christian wrong a Jew, what should his
sufferance be by Christian example? Why, revenge.
The villainy you teach me, I will execute,
and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction.

[Justice and Mercy]

I honestly think some clones should be used for organ use for hospitals. You know, one life for four lives.

Clones don't have to be used for organ use.

We've grown working human organs. If enough capital could be allocated into the field, we'd have had organs in jars long ago.

But, unfortunately, medical R&D companies are the most hated of the most hated, up there with banks.

[alhoon]

Rifleman, read the text he quoted instead of skimming it.

Mr.Crow: Killing another person to save your life is not self defense. It's premeditated murder. Killing another person that attacks you to save yourself is defined as self defense.
Else a rich guy could send a couple of goons with stun guns to knock you out and harvest your organs. Well, it actually happens and it's considered a heineous crime, not self defense.
Also, I don't know who mr Polivax is but I disagree with him if he considers success in life is more important than the life of a child.

[Mr. Crow]

Mr.Crow: Killing another person to save your life is not self defense. It's premeditated murder. Killing another person that attacks you to save yourself is defined as self defense. .

Well the main propose of individuals is preserving life at all costs, if the market allows some people to clone themselves in order to increase their life span, they have all the right to do so.

Else a rich guy could send a couple of goons with stun guns to knock you out and harvest your organs. Well, it actually happens and it's considered a heineous crime, not self defense..

because we are equal citizen under the law, in the case of the aforementioned clone, its hole propose would be to increasing the life of the creator

Also, I don't know who mr Polivax is but I disagree with him if he considers success in life is more important than the life of a child.

he is an ecologist, he outlines several ecological principles that humans share with animals, it does not mater if you agree or not, the real world adheres to the 3rd principle by large.

here is the list of principles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fates_of_Nations

[Don in the North]

au contraire, for overpopulation is an issue of breeding, why would people (rich people who can afford cloning) breed extensively when they can simply clone themselves? occurs to me that population growth would be reduced to a certain degree, and the population would stabilize if anything