Few questions about Mounted Archers and Heavy Cavalry

[Drachos]

Hi,so,i am new and don't know anything about this game,so i would appreciate any help.

The game says that the mongols got the best cavalry power in the world....let's see that...
The ''Mongol Horse Archers'' (mounted) got 8 missile attack...and the mounted Dvor archers can eat them with 10 missile attack..even Vardariotai are stronger ...their heavy cavalry...umm

Mongol Heavy Lancers can be easily countered by Teutonic Knights or Chivalric knights or other...so if they can be killed by everybody does not mean that they are the strongest lol...and look..here is the main question:


In one faction's weaknesses and strengths is something like: Has good cavalry/doesn't have good cavalry.And i compare those two,and they have almost the same heavy cav,also they have almost the same light cavalry...but in some factions,it's true that they got really no good cav or smt like that...

Thank you in advance
Drachos

[TheFoolOnTheHill]

they have the best assortment i think
khans gaurds are there best

[Drachos]

Khan's Guard
Attack 13
Defence 17
Charge 6

Chivalric Knights
Attack 13
Defence 18
Charge 8
Still chivalric knights are better

[Aeratus]

Khan's Guard
Attack 13
Defence 17
Charge 6

Chivalric Knights
Attack 13
Defence 18
Charge 8
Still chivalric knights are better

Khan's Guard is better because they have Armor piercing attacks, which drops the opposing unit's armor by half.

So the Chiv knight only has a defense of 14 against the Khan's Guard, becuase the chiv knight has 8 armor, and that drop to 4 armor against the Khan's Guard's AP attack.

In any case, the Khan's Guard is not the best cavalry unit in the game (vanilla version). The best overall are the Royal Mameluk and Qapukulu. The best Knight-style cavalry is the Polish Guard, followed by the French Lancer and HRE Gothic Knight.

Also, descriptions of the faction's strength and weaknesses are not serious evaluations.

[Avatar]

Khan's Guard is better because they have Armor piercing attacks, which drops the opposing unit's armor by half.

So the Chiv knight only has a defense of 14 against the Khan's Guard, becuase the chiv knight has 8 armor, and that drop to 4 armor against the Khan's Guard's AP attack.

When unupgraded, the Khan's Guard is the best cavalry in Vanilla in terms of cavalry vs. cavalry fighting. However, when upgraded, the Egyptian Royal Mamluk and Turkish Qapukulu are better.

Also, descriptions of the faction's strength and weaknesses are not serious evaluations.

Actually, they do have a basis, its called history. The mongols being the "best cavalry power in the world" is supported by the amount of territory they rode through and conquered.

[TheFoolOnTheHill]

i know its weird

[KingofPoland]

Its because when they appear on the map, they got like 15 units of cav per stack, so even France's cavalry might would have trouble countering theirs.

[Leaf-Fan-Forever]

Well, they are good in all aspects of cavalry, with good light and heavy HA, Melee Cav and the Khans Guard is a very nice unit as well. If I remember right a lot of their cavalry also has AP weapons.

There are individual Cavalry units that can probably beat them in every area (Dvor > Mongol HA,,, Lancers > Khans Guard etc...) but very few, if any, factions have a better overall Cavalry force.

[PrestigeX]

They have the best cavalry because of the sheer volume of horsemen. Also, it's important to note that their General's are high in experience, and most if not all their horde units come with silver chevrons - increasing their stats quite a bit.

Individual units from other factions may be better in stats, but, the Mongols arrive at a time when most factions would be lucky to field one or any of it's elite troops -- so you wouldn't be fighting with French mounted archers and Chivalric knights, you'd have Feudal Knights and Crossbowmen ... Or as the turks, if lucky you might have Siphani Lancers ...

Russia maybe you'd have dvor but , probably just the dismounted version.

[crzyrndm]

They have the best cavalry because of the sheer volume of horsemen. Also, it's important to note that their General's are high in experience, and most if not all their horde units come with silver chevrons - increasing their stats quite a bit.

Individual units from other factions may be better in stats, but, the Mongols arrive at a time when most factions would be lucky to field one or any of it's elite troops -- so you wouldn't be fighting with French mounted archers and Chivalric knights, you'd have Feudal Knights and Crossbowmen ... Or as the turks, if lucky you might have Siphani Lancers ...

Russia maybe you'd have dvor but , probably just the dismounted version.

Definetely this. 8+ dread & command generals also have to be taken into account, along with the 6xp every unit starts with. Combined with the fact that they move around as a group, so you will be facing two or three stacks at once they make very difficult foes. Even if you can get to your elite cav, could you field ~100+ units of them at that point(10+/stack*10+stacks)

[Silverheart]

The Mongols have the best Cavalry in the world because their horsemen perform better, and it´s the same thing with the other example you mentioned - there´s is more to it than simply what attack/defence values the soldiers have.
Also, you need to keep in mind that the Mongols Horde armies are packed full with naught but very experienced soldiers - which makes them (not only stronger) more accurate in shootouts and better fighters in close combat.

I´ve tried myself to use a full army of Vardariotai against a Mongol horde army - their Horse Archers were able to beat even the Vardariotai! A unit which I have never suffered defeat with lost to the Mongols´ cavalry in a matter of minutes.
So don´t underestimate them just because they have some relatively low stats - that´s the mistake I did...

[Drachos]

So what you say,it's because of the big number of the Mongols,and the good stats they got....Hmmm So i'll just spawn 2 or 3 full stacks of lancers and drown the Mongols do death or?

[Mr. Battle]

So what you say,it's because of the big number of the Mongols,and the good stats they got....Hmmm So i'll just spawn 2 or 3 full stacks of lancers and drown the Mongols do death or?

By spawn, do you mean go into the console and just spawn the units? If so, yes, that should let you take care of the Mongols. Of course you can take care of any faction by cheating. The Mongols are a challenge because they come before you will be able to field a ton of elite cavalry.

Also, lancers probably will work against the AI, but strategically, they SHOULD take heavy casualties to horse archers because they aren't fast enough to run down horse archers and they would be taking arrow fire while in pursuit.

I fight them with more cavalry and spearmen than I usually field, but I still take a fairly balanced army. A general with the "Night Fighter" trait is a must. Otherwise, you will have to face 2-3 stacks every battle.

[Aeratus]

So what you say,it's because of the big number of the Mongols,and the good stats they got....Hmmm So i'll just spawn 2 or 3 full stacks of lancers and drown the Mongols do death or?

One full stack of Lancers can take on 2 full strength Mongol stacks in the same battle. The only Mongol troops that can counter heavy cavalry are their general bodyguard units (which have Armor piercing maces), and own heavy lancers, but they only have 4 heavy lancers in a stack. Heavy archers also carry armor piercing maces, but they are not very strong in melee combat, and their arrows won't do very much damage as long as you charge into their army right away. So a full stack of lancer would easily run over the Mongols, even with their 9 star generals and silver chevron units.

If you have another stack of Lancers, don't be afraid to entrust it to the AI's control. Even with the really bad AI in vanilla, they're still competent commanding cavalry en mass. With a reinforcement stack of lancers / chivalric knights, you can probably take on 3 full strength Mongol stacks at once.

[Aeratus]

The strengths/weaknesses descriptions often have no basis in in-game stats.

[Drachos]

Are armor piercing attacks same as ''Effective against armor'' ?

[Silverheart]

Are armor piercing attacks same as ''Effective against armor'' ?

Yes.

There are also many units in the game which have armour piercing secondary weapons.
If the secondary weapon is armour piercing, but not the primary weapon, it won´t show in the "abilities at glance".
A good example is the Khan´s Guard, which have lances as primary weapons, but heavy maces as secondary. There are also many archer units in the game which use mallets or maces instead of swords as secondary weapons. Learning which units that have these AP secondary weapons enables you to plan your strategies more effectively (so that you DON`T send some fancy Chivalric Knights to get "inexplicably" butchered because they charged the wrong enemy...)

[Drachos]

Yes.

There are also many units in the game which have armour piercing secondary weapons.
If the secondary weapon is armour piercing, but not the primary weapon, it won´t show in the "abilities at glance".
A good example is the Khan´s Guard, which have lances as primary weapons, but heavy maces as secondary. There are also many archer units in the game which use mallets or maces instead of swords as secondary weapons. Learning which units that have these AP secondary weapons enables you to plan your strategies more effectively (so that you DON`T send some fancy Chivalric Knights to get "inexplicably" butchered because they charged the wrong enemy...)

By spawn, do you mean go into the console and just spawn the units? If so, yes, that should let you take care of the Mongols. Of course you can take care of any faction by cheating. The Mongols are a challenge because they come before you will be able to field a ton of elite cavalry.

Also, lancers probably will work against the AI, but strategically, they SHOULD take heavy casualties to horse archers because they aren't fast enough to run down horse archers and they would be taking arrow fire while in pursuit.

I fight them with more cavalry and spearmen than I usually field, but I still take a fairly balanced army. A general with the "Night Fighter" trait is a must. Otherwise, you will have to face 2-3 stacks every battle.

By spawn i mean recruit.maybe u misunderstood it.How can i give my general a Night Fighter trait?








And Silverheart,how can i switch to my secondary weapon,and how can i know if it is an AP weapon if it won't show ?

[Mr. Battle]

By spawn i mean recruit.maybe u misunderstood it.How can i give my general a Night Fighter trait?

Sorry, I wasn't really accusing you of cheating (not that there's anything wrong with that), just asking for clarification.

I'm not sure how you get the night fighter trait, but if you have several generals, odds are that at least one or two have that trait. Just look for it on the unit card. It is one of the more useful traits in the game, and it will take away the biggest advantage the Mongols have, numbers, by letting you fight them one stack at a time.

Another strategy against the Mongols is to simply not face them in an open field. Cavalry aren't very effective in sieging castles and cities, and their infantry are pretty weak. This strategy always seemed sort of cheap to me because the AI is so poor at laying an effective siege, but desperate times can call for desperate measures.

[Silverheart]

You can check the files - there you see if the units´ secondary weapon is AP or not.
Or, as I did, you can just play the game and remain observant of what happens in the battles - eventually you´ll learn.

You can switch to the secondary weapon by holding down ALT while clicking on an enemy unit - it causes Missile troops to switch to secondary weapon and charge in for close combat.
As with non-missile units, you don´t have to do a thing. Just charge them into the fray, and they usually switch automatically to secondary weapons once they start fighting.
Knights, for example, always uses their primary weapon (lance) only during the charge, and then draw swords/maces when the fighting begins.