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Thread: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

  1. #121
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    some things to help for this period, ston frescoes

    stefan vojislav,around 1020s

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    from the same church, some of the saints
    take a look at the sword, shield with slavo-byz clothing

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    and weapons of neretva region, probably weapons of neretljani, 9th-10th century
    slavic sword

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    western swords in zeta, left around 950ad and right around 1000ad
    zeta was under western influence, but western swords can be seen ion serbian frescoes in later times. western swords were popular among noble men

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Last edited by phoenix[illusion]; December 03, 2012 at 06:23 AM.
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  2. #122
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    Thank you my friend.
    Fortunatly TGC arsenal already has all these weapons in its disposal.
    I am certain that Socal Infidel will find all this info quite hyelpfull.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  3. #123
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    from T. Zivkovic's book "Srbi i Romeji"

    "According to archaeological research of Gradina in Pazarište, we can say that the first Slav houses in mountain fortification can be put in the IX and X century. If the timing of the Slavic settlement in the finding at least approximately correct, it is entirely consistent with the allegations of Porpyrogenitus of cities in Serbia in the first half of the tenth century. Porphyrogenitus says that in baptized Serbia populated cities are Destinik (το Δεστινίκον) Cernavusk (Τζερναβουσκέη) Međurečje (το Μεγυρέτους) Dresneik (το Δρεσνεηκ) Lesnik (το Λεσνηκ) and Salines (= today. Tuzla). We have already said that term city (grad) is understood as a settlement surrounded by walls, so in that true meaning of the Greek language was appropriate expression as polis. However, Porphyrogenitus says here κάστρα οηκούμενα, which literally translated means "the inhabited fortress". In any case, this Porphyrogenitus data exactly fits the archaeological picture fortifications X century in region of Raška. It only confirms our assumption that Slavs from the IX century began frequent use of fortified places, they inhabit them and use for military role."

    "...However, from time of Vlastimir's rule, when came to the first Bulgarian-Serbian war, a quiet period for the Serbs is being discontinued. Raids of Bulgarian Army in Serbia three years of warfare in 848/851. years, had also reflect the changes in the life of Slavs in Serbia. Fortified places, then in ruins, regained their old role, as resistant militarily points."
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  4. #124
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    well, that word rampalija was from byz texts 12th century. original word is rhomphaia, thraco-dacian old two handed single edged sword used as polearms. but still, that word makes confusion, cause we don't know were they taling about two handed weapon or single edged sword
    Quote Originally Posted by il_duce_! View Post
    Yes, it does make confusion, but we know that Serbs used "rmpalija" word to indicate strong, big men, capable of using two handed weapons. I doubt that they used two handed swords back then.

    In modern greek I believe rhomphaia means broad sword. In latin "rumpo" means to break (bones).

    I believe that Serbs used that word for two hand axes.
    Quote Originally Posted by absinthia View Post
    while i am not knowledgeable about Serbian language, i had the impression that "rmpalija" were an archaic form for strong man or someone used to hard labour, possibly from rural or hilly areas. i was not aware that the word stems from a specialized weapon...
    i would imagine that such an axe rather were a tool well suited for clearing forests, which would certainly be hard labour enough to form strong men. though i doubt strength alone would make anyone in general chosen for such an honourable position as bodyguard, compared to someone of noble birth.
    further more the certain existence of long axes as tools for wood cutting and the consequent use of said tool as a weapon in times of struggle, it does not warrant for making of a unit uniquely equipped with such axes.
    as usage of a 2 handed weapon eliminates protection of a shield it must be considered a specialist weapon, unless it is simply the only option at hand. while such long axes might not be uncommon within any levy army, it would certainly be mixed with other weapons and the user seeking safety behind a shield wall.
    Quote Originally Posted by il_duce_! View Post
    No. It has to do with heavy weapons, big and heavy swords, and polearms.

    Rmpalija was used by Serbs for people carrying those heavy weapons.

    There are no evidence that Serbs used heavy swords, and I would also exclude polearms. On the other hand they certainly used axes. I dont see any other explanation.
    and to update all this discussion. il_duce is right, rhomphaia is term for two handed axe in this case. probably rmpalija is derivative from it, but it's actually term for two handed axe by greeks of that time. many historians connected that word with thracian rhomphaia, other says it is actually dacian falx, but that kind of weapon is long forgotten. i'm glad i found answer to it, tim dawson, one of the best byz military historians broke mystery:

    http://www.levantia.com.au/theory/rhomfaia.html

    so, yes, romphaia is used for two handed axe when describing varangians, and there is no doubt that they use the same word for serbs having two handed axe (12th century script, a bit out of our period, but still, remember the two handed axe from the museum, 9th century)

    and as for "that axe looks like axe for cutting wood" or "that axe looks like executioner axe" i think it's silly thinking, especially in this period where anything could be a weapon, and we can agree that any kind of axe could actually kill.

    and if you look at those 4 axes from museum, which some of you called not war axes, you can see that it's missing a pieces, like it's broken. i made some of my reconstruction

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    first about number two, cause it's more realistic. if you can see, it is missing blade. it is a typical war axe (also called as viking, but many peoples had it, slavs too), and if you can see it's top, it's not straight, but it has a little slope, so by my thinking, and reconstruction it's a kind of axe like this one:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    as for number one, i'm not sure about that one, does not seem legit with head i reconstructed (too heavy), but it seems to fit if yo see that down side of head is not straight, but a crack
    Last edited by phoenix[illusion]; December 04, 2012 at 02:21 PM.
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  5. #125
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    I have a hard time trusting a historian who can't distinguish between a (Thracian) romphaia and a (Dacian) falx.

  6. #126

    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    “Psellos, however, claims that every Varangian ‘without exception’ was armed with a shield and rhomphaia, a one-edged sword of heavy iron which they carry suspended from the right shoulder.”
    “The whole group carry shields and brandish on their shoulders a certain (sic) single-edged, heavy-iron weapon.”
    common among the Germanic peoples were the use of the Saex knife, commonly worn by every free man. by the 9th century these knives had evolved into short arming swords. the description of the "rhomphaia" worn by the Varangians seem to fit the bill quite well.
    Heavy Breitsax
    Also starting in the late 6th Century, severe Breitsaxe whose blade lengths, with an average at 355 mm and widths were about 49 mm. Otherwise reported the heavy Breitsaxe the same features as the Light Breitsaxe. [1] Langsax
    From the last quarter of the 7th Century, the blades of the first Breitsaxe slim with average lengths of 490 mm in width by 42 mm. In the final stage reached an average of 520 mm lengths.
    definition of Saexes.

    that is if the translation of the weapon being suspended over the shoulder hold any truth.

    otherwise i can agree that the description of an heavy iron weapon slung over the shoulder could well be a two handed axe. due to the issue of ballance, such a long axe is easily carried over the shoulder. there are several passages in the sagas that descripe someone comming with "sharp axes on their necks", describing they being ready for a fight.
    this method of transporting axes are even mentioned in the traditional "Sinklars Visa":
    Sinklars Visa

    "De bønder fra Våge, Lesje og Lom,
    med skarpe økser på nakke,
    i Bredebøjg sammen kom."
    Hr. Alf han hugg til han var mod, Han sto i femten Ridderes Blod; Så tog han alle de Kogger ni Og sejlede dermed til Norge fri. Og der kom tidende til Rostock ind, Der blegned saa mangen Rosenkind. Der græd Enker og der græd Børn, Dem hadde gjort fattig den skadelige Ørn.
    Anders Sørensen Vedel

  7. #127
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    We must remember that Greeks and later Greco-Romans liked to use generised terms in everything that was not "theirs".
    Remember terms like :
    Scythae, Turks, Saracens etc...
    For the 1st time the term rhomphaia was ever used described an unussual weapon of a mythical warrior Ehetlaeos that scuptures shown him with something like a sheperd's stick!
    But in middle Mycenean era rhomphaia was the main weapon of the Lycian hoplites that looked more or less like an agricultural sickle.
    It was very very curved..
    Durring the Dorian and Thracian wars and later coexistance (Macedons)
    rhomphaia was that curved sword like weapon.
    Romans called the Dacian version of that weapon Falx but Greeks still called it rhomphaia.
    The term was inactive since the Christianity became the formal Religion of the Roman State. The 1st "warriors" that used rhomphaia were the Officers of the Angel Taxis (battalions) with Archangel Michael as the higher in rank of all. The odd of that rhomphaia was its blades that look more like indu dagger blades rather that agricultural sickles or spathas.
    Only later (8th century or newer) icons show rhomphaia as cavalry spatha (spathion).The sure is that every long blade sword for single handed or double handed use had the description term of rhomphaia.
    Remember that in medieval era terms used describing diffrent things than in ancient eras were described with them.
    Varangians apeared from the propaganda of Basill II not as his personal guards (because he did not trust his own generals) but as the new recently biptised warriors that came to help Orthodoxy to defeat Christianity's enemies. That "devine" myth is still active today (many myths say that the Blond Gender will help to liberate Constantinople). As "devine" warriors those men with the axes carried long bladed swords. Rhomphaia was the perfect term for their weapon (sword) as guards of the faith!
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  8. #128
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    for sure, byzantines many times tend to use old antic words for many things
    but you should know that rhomphaia is distingushed from sword by anna komene:
    She describes the Varangians surrounding the Emperor “some with xiphê (plural) girded on, some carrying spears and some having on their shoulders the heavy iron rhomphaia”
    considering that xiphos is word for sword, rhomphaia is probably weapon of different looks, and probably does not have anything to do with the sword.
    also, as il duce said, name for rhomphaia comes from latin rumpo, which means to break, to tear (this is also written on wiki, although no sources put). weapons that varanginas had must be some kind of large weapon (an axe, as we suggested). in sources they are mentioned as heavy, so, either real rhomphaia/falx (which is unlikely) or 2h axe or even 2h sword?!

    i would also add one pic to my 2h axe theory. in skylitzes' chronicle varagians are armed with heavy axe, some of them with spears (as anna said, some wore spear some "rhomphaia"), if we assume rhomphaia=heavy axe, we can see that both weapons are behind their shoulders, not their arms.

    one more thing which totally changed things is existence of real rhomphaia as thracian one. on wiki article, there is one serbian article about weapon called "kosača" (meaning large scythe) which rally reminds of ancient one, but it is dated in XIV medieval serbia??? it is said that two kinds (one on spear one with handle) is kept in museum in montenegro. it is a drawing of it. i searched on google about that guy (Bratislav Tabaš), and he's done many wiki articles, mostly about serbian history, particularly montenegro, kotor. he made many drawings like these, and all weapons, maps are regular. i would like to research more about it. as for rhomphaia as this one (that looks like ancient) many historians said it was never depicted, but we should be more careful about byz style paintings, cause many of them depict only small arsenal of weapons (always repeating the same). i know it through history of serbian armor, where western armor s rarely shown on frescoes (only through some helmets and swords) but reality states different (that both were used)
    Last edited by phoenix[illusion]; December 07, 2012 at 02:10 PM.
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  9. #129
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    considering that xiphos is word for sword, rhomphaia is probably weapon of different looks, and probably does not have anything to do with the sword.
    Or probably the rhomphaia is a different type of a sword than the xiphos. Which it really is.

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    also, as il duce said, name for rhomphaia comes from latin rumpo, which means to break, to tear (this is also written on wiki, although no sources put).
    Incorrect and absurd, since it would mean that there were no romphaias before the Latins - which Anthonios clearly showed is quite wrong. The Latin "rumpo" is simply believed to be distantly related through the common IE origins of the languages in questions (Thracian, Greek and Latin are all IE languages).

    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix[illusion] View Post
    one more thing which totally changed things is existence of real rhomphaia as thracian one. on wiki article, there is one serbian article about weapon called "kosača" (meaning large scythe) which rally reminds of ancient one, but it is dated in XIV medieval serbia???
    The existence of the Thracian romphaia is undisputable, since we have 10 archaeologicals finds of it only from Bulgaria, which are dated exactly to Thracian times. Though if what you post is true, then that means that it was used in the medieval Balkans as well (in this case under a Slavic name), which only supports the theory that the romphaia was used by the medieval Byzantines as well, eventhough rarely.

  10. #130

    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Only later (8th century or newer) icons show rhomphaia as cavalry spatha (spathion).The sure is that every long blade sword for single handed or double handed use had the description term of rhomphaia.
    Remember that in medieval era terms used describing diffrent things than in ancient eras were described with them.
    in that light i assume that the romphaia worn by varangians very well might had been a common breitsax, as it was a heavy single edged blade.
    or it could have been any kind of sword hung from the shoulder.
    Hr. Alf han hugg til han var mod, Han sto i femten Ridderes Blod; Så tog han alle de Kogger ni Og sejlede dermed til Norge fri. Og der kom tidende til Rostock ind, Der blegned saa mangen Rosenkind. Der græd Enker og der græd Børn, Dem hadde gjort fattig den skadelige Ørn.
    Anders Sørensen Vedel

  11. #131
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    Quote Originally Posted by absinthia View Post
    in that light i assume that the romphaia worn by varangians very well might had been a common breitsax, as it was a heavy single edged blade.
    or it could have been any kind of sword hung from the shoulder.
    Yes ...what was the main criteria was the size of that sword and not the shape of it...
    Any long blade sword like weapon -atleast in similar size of a spatha (1.1 m blade long atleast) could be named rhomphaia.
    Archangel Michael was suposed to carry a rhomphaia.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    But after 8th century the sword look more and more as a cavalry spatha (byzantine spathion).
    Αrchangels are also known as Taxiarchae (yes the same cavalry military rank) because they are suposed that order the Angels battalions (taxis(.


    From that point their apearence look very millitary.
    Maybe at that point the real meaning of rhompaia was lost as there were no visible examples.
    Spathion (cavalry long sword) replaced the weapon in icons but the name survived as a "holy weapon".
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; December 10, 2012 at 07:43 PM.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  12. #132
    matija191's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    About those 4 axes:

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Ra%C5%A1ka.jpg

    First one (from the left) is dated to 14-16th C., second one to the same period and the last one to the 15-16th century.My source is actually a serbian one:

    Marko Alkesić - Weapons from medieval collection of National Museum in Belgrade, Glasnik Srpskog arheološkog društva


    Axe found in the Danube (cat. no. 5 fig. 2/1) has according to certain similarity with the find from the Iron Gates been dated generally in the 14th-16th centuries. Battle-axe from the unknown site (cat. no. 6; fig. 2/2) on the basis of analogies with specimens from Serbia and Croatia as well as the painting representation of the axes from Russia dates from the 15th-16th century. Axe of large dimensions found in Smederevo (cat.no. 7; fig. 2/3) is the most similar to two axes also originating from Smederevo and belongs to the period between the 14th and 16th century.
    So, those axes (except the third one), are out of the mod's time-frame.
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  13. #133
    phoenix[illusion]'s Avatar Palman Bracht
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    thanks for update

    here's some swords from balkans of early meadievals

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    1.Ston
    2.Mogorjelo
    3.Beograd
    4.Ohrid
    5.Knin
    6.Knin
    7.Pridraga
    8.Knin
    long time no see, but still twc drug kickin'
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  14. #134
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    Great Counterpoint381's "viking" swords we already use can be modified to accuratly show those swords.
    Also Absinthia's german swords can be used for the same reason.
    Luckily in this point we have the needed sources.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  15. #135
    matija191's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    Serbs from Skylitzes chronicle:



    Very lightly equipped, only two of them have shields, two have bows and arrows, four of them are mounted, the reast are armed only with stones.No one has any protection, not even the helmets, including the commanders on the horses.

    Something from neighbouring Dioclea:

    Seal of archont Peter (970.-990.)


    Saint George in chain-mail shirt, armed with spear and sword.No helmet and no shield.Description based on this.

    Seal of king Bodin (1082.-1099.)


    Spear and shield.Maybe even some sort of boy armor.

    Seal of king George (first half of 12th century)


    Spear and kite shield.Most likely body armor of unknown origin.
    COMPANY OF HEROES - BALKANS IN FLAMES

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  16. #136
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    I agree the term "heavy" was difererent from nation to nation.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  17. #137

    Default Re: [Faction Research topic]: Serbia.

    Quote Originally Posted by matija191 View Post
    Serbs from Skylitzes chronicle

    That is because the author is depicting a cliff ambush which depicts the Serbs throwing rocks downhill as the main theme.

    You will notice that most of the manuscript does not depict any sidearms or sheathed weapons but just the weapon being used or carried in the image, meaning the soldiery in the image do not have swords or spears or other weapons because the author of the depiction is depicting them while throwing stones in an ambush and does not depict their actual "regular" weapons at the same time.

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