[Faction research topic]: The Great Moravia,Serbia, Anciliaries and titles.

[Majkl]

1. Sloveni,Slovaks where are your roots?
2. Word about Slavs, their demons and gods

[NikeBG]

Streltzi is not a Polish word. In Polish it would be strzelcy.

Indeed, "streltzi" (or, more correctly, "streltsi", considering our transliteration standarts) is Bulgarian. Though all this is pretty much irrelevant, considering none of those spellings fit 100% with the OCS/OB spelling, which itself is next to impossible to be transliterated to the Latin alphabet without some serious and strangely-looking diacritical flood. But, nonetheless, I think streltzi/streltsi is indeed the closest transliterated form (the main differences from the original are the missing "ь" between the "l" and the "ts", as well as the "ьi" in the end, which we've rendered simply as "i").

Of course, I'm open to the possibility that there might be some specific Moravian spelling from those times, that I'm unaware of. F.e. that's why we rendered the first word in the unit's name as "hradni" instead of the accurate OCS/OB "gradni" - I'm not sure on the matter (gotta finally check that article about the Moravisms in OCS/OB), but I presume that the g/h change had already happened by the mod's time, which is why we chose that form (and if we're proven wrong, on any of the two accounts, we'd have to correct ourselves).

[Majkl]

I always had problems with all that linguistic stuff so much mess around should have study something about it .. OCS/OB u mean old slavonic church and old bulgarian?

[NikeBG]

Yup, OCS is Old Church Slavonic, which is basically Old Bulgarian (OB). Though it also has some, rather rarely attested, non-Bulgarian expressions, usually called "Moravisms in OCS", "Balkanism in OCS" etc. (and, of course, the later, better attested editions, like Russian edition, Serbian edition, Middle Bulgarian etc).

[Alejandro Sanchez]

Indeed, "streltzi" (or, more correctly, "streltsi", considering our transliteration standarts) is Bulgarian.

Old Russian word too

[NikeBG]

Old Russian is a very wide temporal term. Though, yes, considering Bulgarian and Russian are closely related (and OB/MB and OR - even more so), it fits as a Russian form as well.

[phoenix[illusion]]

some things to help for this period, ston frescoes

stefan vojislav,around 1020s

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

from the same church, some of the saints
take a look at the sword, shield with slavo-byz clothing

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

and weapons of neretva region, probably weapons of neretljani, 9th-10th century
slavic sword

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

western swords in zeta, left around 950ad and right around 1000ad
zeta was under western influence, but western swords can be seen ion serbian frescoes in later times. western swords were popular among noble men

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[AnthoniusII]

Thank you my friend.
Fortunatly TGC arsenal already has all these weapons in its disposal.
I am certain that Socal Infidel will find all this info quite hyelpfull.

[phoenix[illusion]]

from T. Zivkovic's book "Srbi i Romeji"

"According to archaeological research of Gradina in Pazarište, we can say that the first Slav houses in mountain fortification can be put in the IX and X century. If the timing of the Slavic settlement in the finding at least approximately correct, it is entirely consistent with the allegations of Porpyrogenitus of cities in Serbia in the first half of the tenth century. Porphyrogenitus says that in baptized Serbia populated cities are Destinik (το Δεστινίκον) Cernavusk (Τζερναβουσκέη) Međurečje (το Μεγυρέτους) Dresneik (το Δρεσνεηκ) Lesnik (το Λεσνηκ) and Salines (= today. Tuzla). We have already said that term city (grad) is understood as a settlement surrounded by walls, so in that true meaning of the Greek language was appropriate expression as polis. However, Porphyrogenitus says here κάστρα οηκούμενα, which literally translated means "the inhabited fortress". In any case, this Porphyrogenitus data exactly fits the archaeological picture fortifications X century in region of Raška. It only confirms our assumption that Slavs from the IX century began frequent use of fortified places, they inhabit them and use for military role."

"...However, from time of Vlastimir's rule, when came to the first Bulgarian-Serbian war, a quiet period for the Serbs is being discontinued. Raids of Bulgarian Army in Serbia three years of warfare in 848/851. years, had also reflect the changes in the life of Slavs in Serbia. Fortified places, then in ruins, regained their old role, as resistant militarily points."

[phoenix[illusion]]

well, that word rampalija was from byz texts 12th century. original word is rhomphaia, thraco-dacian old two handed single edged sword used as polearms. but still, that word makes confusion, cause we don't know were they taling about two handed weapon or single edged sword

Yes, it does make confusion, but we know that Serbs used "rmpalija" word to indicate strong, big men, capable of using two handed weapons. I doubt that they used two handed swords back then.

In modern greek I believe rhomphaia means broad sword. In latin "rumpo" means to break (bones).

I believe that Serbs used that word for two hand axes.

while i am not knowledgeable about Serbian language, i had the impression that "rmpalija" were an archaic form for strong man or someone used to hard labour, possibly from rural or hilly areas. i was not aware that the word stems from a specialized weapon...
i would imagine that such an axe rather were a tool well suited for clearing forests, which would certainly be hard labour enough to form strong men. though i doubt strength alone would make anyone in general chosen for such an honourable position as bodyguard, compared to someone of noble birth.
further more the certain existence of long axes as tools for wood cutting and the consequent use of said tool as a weapon in times of struggle, it does not warrant for making of a unit uniquely equipped with such axes.
as usage of a 2 handed weapon eliminates protection of a shield it must be considered a specialist weapon, unless it is simply the only option at hand. while such long axes might not be uncommon within any levy army, it would certainly be mixed with other weapons and the user seeking safety behind a shield wall.

No. It has to do with heavy weapons, big and heavy swords, and polearms.

Rmpalija was used by Serbs for people carrying those heavy weapons.

There are no evidence that Serbs used heavy swords, and I would also exclude polearms. On the other hand they certainly used axes. I dont see any other explanation.

and to update all this discussion. il_duce is right, rhomphaia is term for two handed axe in this case. probably rmpalija is derivative from it, but it's actually term for two handed axe by greeks of that time. many historians connected that word with thracian rhomphaia, other says it is actually dacian falx, but that kind of weapon is long forgotten. i'm glad i found answer to it, tim dawson, one of the best byz military historians broke mystery:

http://www.levantia.com.au/theory/rhomfaia.html

so, yes, romphaia is used for two handed axe when describing varangians, and there is no doubt that they use the same word for serbs having two handed axe (12th century script, a bit out of our period, but still, remember the two handed axe from the museum, 9th century)

and as for "that axe looks like axe for cutting wood" or "that axe looks like executioner axe" i think it's silly thinking, especially in this period where anything could be a weapon, and we can agree that any kind of axe could actually kill.

and if you look at those 4 axes from museum, which some of you called not war axes, you can see that it's missing a pieces, like it's broken. i made some of my reconstruction

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

first about number two, cause it's more realistic. if you can see, it is missing blade. it is a typical war axe (also called as viking, but many peoples had it, slavs too), and if you can see it's top, it's not straight, but it has a little slope, so by my thinking, and reconstruction it's a kind of axe like this one:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

as for number one, i'm not sure about that one, does not seem legit with head i reconstructed (too heavy), but it seems to fit if yo see that down side of head is not straight, but a crack

[NikeBG]

I have a hard time trusting a historian who can't distinguish between a (Thracian) romphaia and a (Dacian) falx.

[absinthia]

“Psellos, however, claims that every Varangian ‘without exception’ was armed with a shield and rhomphaia, a one-edged sword of heavy iron which they carry suspended from the right shoulder.”
“The whole group carry shields and brandish on their shoulders a certain (sic) single-edged, heavy-iron weapon.”

common among the Germanic peoples were the use of the Saex knife, commonly worn by every free man. by the 9th century these knives had evolved into short arming swords. the description of the "rhomphaia" worn by the Varangians seem to fit the bill quite well.

Heavy Breitsax
Also starting in the late 6th Century, severe Breitsaxe whose blade lengths, with an average at 355 mm and widths were about 49 mm. Otherwise reported the heavy Breitsaxe the same features as the Light Breitsaxe. [1] Langsax
From the last quarter of the 7th Century, the blades of the first Breitsaxe slim with average lengths of 490 mm in width by 42 mm. In the final stage reached an average of 520 mm lengths.

definition of Saexes.

that is if the translation of the weapon being suspended over the shoulder hold any truth.

otherwise i can agree that the description of an heavy iron weapon slung over the shoulder could well be a two handed axe. due to the issue of ballance, such a long axe is easily carried over the shoulder. there are several passages in the sagas that descripe someone comming with "sharp axes on their necks", describing they being ready for a fight.
this method of transporting axes are even mentioned in the traditional "Sinklars Visa":

Sinklars Visa

"De bønder fra Våge, Lesje og Lom,
med skarpe økser på nakke,
i Bredebøjg sammen kom."

[AnthoniusII]

We must remember that Greeks and later Greco-Romans liked to use generised terms in everything that was not "theirs".
Remember terms like :
Scythae, Turks, Saracens etc...
For the 1st time the term rhomphaia was ever used described an unussual weapon of a mythical warrior Ehetlaeos that scuptures shown him with something like a sheperd's stick!
But in middle Mycenean era rhomphaia was the main weapon of the Lycian hoplites that looked more or less like an agricultural sickle.
It was very very curved..
Durring the Dorian and Thracian wars and later coexistance (Macedons)
rhomphaia was that curved sword like weapon.
Romans called the Dacian version of that weapon Falx but Greeks still called it rhomphaia.
The term was inactive since the Christianity became the formal Religion of the Roman State. The 1st "warriors" that used rhomphaia were the Officers of the Angel Taxis (battalions) with Archangel Michael as the higher in rank of all. The odd of that rhomphaia was its blades that look more like indu dagger blades rather that agricultural sickles or spathas.
Only later (8th century or newer) icons show rhomphaia as cavalry spatha (spathion).The sure is that every long blade sword for single handed or double handed use had the description term of rhomphaia.
Remember that in medieval era terms used describing diffrent things than in ancient eras were described with them.
Varangians apeared from the propaganda of Basill II not as his personal guards (because he did not trust his own generals) but as the new recently biptised warriors that came to help Orthodoxy to defeat Christianity's enemies. That "devine" myth is still active today (many myths say that the Blond Gender will help to liberate Constantinople). As "devine" warriors those men with the axes carried long bladed swords. Rhomphaia was the perfect term for their weapon (sword) as guards of the faith!

[phoenix[illusion]]

for sure, byzantines many times tend to use old antic words for many things
but you should know that rhomphaia is distingushed from sword by anna komene:
She describes the Varangians surrounding the Emperor “some with xiphê (plural) girded on, some carrying spears and some having on their shoulders the heavy iron rhomphaia”
considering that xiphos is word for sword, rhomphaia is probably weapon of different looks, and probably does not have anything to do with the sword.
also, as il duce said, name for rhomphaia comes from latin rumpo, which means to break, to tear (this is also written on wiki, although no sources put). weapons that varanginas had must be some kind of large weapon (an axe, as we suggested). in sources they are mentioned as heavy, so, either real rhomphaia/falx (which is unlikely) or 2h axe or even 2h sword?!

i would also add one pic to my 2h axe theory. in skylitzes' chronicle varagians are armed with heavy axe, some of them with spears (as anna said, some wore spear some "rhomphaia"), if we assume rhomphaia=heavy axe, we can see that both weapons are behind their shoulders, not their arms.

one more thing which totally changed things is existence of real rhomphaia as thracian one. on wiki article, there is one serbian article about weapon called "kosača" (meaning large scythe) which rally reminds of ancient one, but it is dated in XIV medieval serbia??? it is said that two kinds (one on spear one with handle) is kept in museum in montenegro. it is a drawing of it. i searched on google about that guy (Bratislav Tabaš), and he's done many wiki articles, mostly about serbian history, particularly montenegro, kotor. he made many drawings like these, and all weapons, maps are regular. i would like to research more about it. as for rhomphaia as this one (that looks like ancient) many historians said it was never depicted, but we should be more careful about byz style paintings, cause many of them depict only small arsenal of weapons (always repeating the same). i know it through history of serbian armor, where western armor s rarely shown on frescoes (only through some helmets and swords) but reality states different (that both were used)

[NikeBG]

considering that xiphos is word for sword, rhomphaia is probably weapon of different looks, and probably does not have anything to do with the sword.

Or probably the rhomphaia is a different type of a sword than the xiphos. Which it really is.

also, as il duce said, name for rhomphaia comes from latin rumpo, which means to break, to tear (this is also written on wiki, although no sources put).

Incorrect and absurd, since it would mean that there were no romphaias before the Latins - which Anthonios clearly showed is quite wrong. The Latin "rumpo" is simply believed to be distantly related through the common IE origins of the languages in questions (Thracian, Greek and Latin are all IE languages).

one more thing which totally changed things is existence of real rhomphaia as thracian one. on wiki article, there is one serbian article about weapon called "kosača" (meaning large scythe) which rally reminds of ancient one, but it is dated in XIV medieval serbia???

The existence of the Thracian romphaia is undisputable, since we have 10 archaeologicals finds of it only from Bulgaria, which are dated exactly to Thracian times. Though if what you post is true, then that means that it was used in the medieval Balkans as well (in this case under a Slavic name), which only supports the theory that the romphaia was used by the medieval Byzantines as well, eventhough rarely.

[absinthia]

Only later (8th century or newer) icons show rhomphaia as cavalry spatha (spathion).The sure is that every long blade sword for single handed or double handed use had the description term of rhomphaia.
Remember that in medieval era terms used describing diffrent things than in ancient eras were described with them.

in that light i assume that the romphaia worn by varangians very well might had been a common breitsax, as it was a heavy single edged blade.
or it could have been any kind of sword hung from the shoulder.

[AnthoniusII]

in that light i assume that the romphaia worn by varangians very well might had been a common breitsax, as it was a heavy single edged blade.
or it could have been any kind of sword hung from the shoulder.

Yes ...what was the main criteria was the size of that sword and not the shape of it...
Any long blade sword like weapon -atleast in similar size of a spatha (1.1 m blade long atleast) could be named rhomphaia.
Archangel Michael was suposed to carry a rhomphaia.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

But after 8th century the sword look more and more as a cavalry spatha (byzantine spathion).
Αrchangels are also known as Taxiarchae (yes the same cavalry military rank) because they are suposed that order the Angels battalions (taxis(.


From that point their apearence look very millitary.
Maybe at that point the real meaning of rhompaia was lost as there were no visible examples.
Spathion (cavalry long sword) replaced the weapon in icons but the name survived as a "holy weapon".

[demagogos nicator]

Maybe this article can help you with research :
http://www.hradiska.sk/2011/05/hillf...ements-in.html

[Heathen Storm]

Maybe this article can help you with research :
http://www.hradiska.sk/2011/05/hillf...ements-in.html

Very informative article, thanks mate. There's only a few units left for me to finish, I haven't yet had the time to finish them. Hopefully soon.

[Majkl]

Sooooo, preview soon?