Iraq veterans turn against the war

[Garbarsardar]

These guys, "went there did that". Beside the increasing number of Americans withdrawing their support for the war Veterans begin to speak out. The ones who don't commit suicide that is. Do you have a feling you've seen it before? I bet you do.
This is from a veteran's letter:

I’ve seen you around. I’ve seen you driving your gas guzzling SUV with the “Support Our Troops” ribbon on the back. I’ve seen you wearing your pro-war/pro-bush t-shirts as you walk right past me in my Iraq Veterans Against the War t-shirt as if I don’t exist. And I’ve seen you at anti-war rallies and meetings where I often speak, as you wave your American flag and call me a traitor. In this country we have freedom of speech. But you owe me and every other veteran of this war the respect of listening to our experience.

Your magnet says “support our troops,” but what have you done for us? Not a penny of the proceeds go to us, instead they go to sweatshops in . You say that I am not supporting the troops when I say that they should come home. But I am, because I know that there was no threat to our nation from Saddam Hussein, I know that had no weapons of mass destruction, and I know that we were not welcomed in as liberators. I know that the war was not worth fighting. I know, because I fought there. You say I’m confused. But what do you know about ? You’ve never been there.

You have the audacity to claim that by not supporting the president, I don’t support the troops. Yet, the president chose to send over 160,000 of us to unprepared and without a defined mission. We had no body armor, no vehicle armor, and poor supplies of ammunition. Our families spent thousands of dollars that they did not have to supply us, while President Bush did nothing. In fact he didn’t even scold his Offensive Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, when he told our forward deployed troops, “you go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had.” Moreover, the mission was originally about weapons of mass destruction, but there were none. Then it was making a democracy, but yet the “insurgency” worsens. Now the president has decided that in order to honor those who died for nothing, more must die for nothing.

And this is one of the cases that bring the faye of Vietnam war Veterans back to mind:

It is with great sadness that IVAW announces the death of one of our own. Specialist Doug Barber, a member of IVAW, recently took his own life after returning from Iraq. A main contributor to his death was the PTSD he dealth with; the same PTSD that originated from the time Doug spent in the war in Iraq. Another contributing factor was the failure of the VA to provide adequate mental care services to heal the wounds of war.

This too:
All is not okay or right for those of us who return home alive and supposedly well. What looks like normalcy and readjustment is only an illusion to be revealed by time and torment. Some soldiers come home missing limbs and other parts of their bodies. Still others will live with permanent scars from horrific events that no one other than those who served will ever understand.

- Douglas Barber, 2005

http://www.ivaw.net/

[Ahiga]

I've heard of Veterans supporting it and veterans not supporting it. I think they don't have a singular feeling for the entire group of them, and that many perhaps speak of supporting it as their position demands it, and to speak out against it would be considered a military heresey, so to speak.

That being said, those that do call soldiers traitors are simply d-bag's. Ditto for those who take any sort of Mccarthy-like stance on voicing opinions against the Government. Thats the kind of mindset the countries we invade have. We've established ourselves on freedom of speech, and can't just do away with it when we feel the need to.


The arguement "These soldiers knew what they were signing up for", I don't think holds up. They'd probably come to expect fighting for their country with what is a purpose, and veterans such as these do not see any, as do many american citizens. To this Veteran and perhaps others, they first went in to protect their nation from the interprited threat of the WMD's, but were twisted into 'freedom fighters', having to sacrifice themselves for a people they might have little connection to.

And no matter the poetic phrasings of bringing democracy and liberty to an opressed people, seeing the life and limb sacrifices for it makes it a lot harder to accept the heroism and place the tragedy of it out of your mind. It becomes very difficult to really question if all of this pain they are going through and the iraqis are going through is enough to warrant the entire event. Wars shouldn't be leapt into when there remains other means of progressing, and it feels like we did just that.

[danzig]

Like every group there are going to be people with difference of views, the military is no exception. What is amusing however when a soldier speaks out in support of Iraq they are often accused/viewed by media or antiwar people as somehow being 'influenced' by their commanders to do so but when a soldier speaks out against the war its somehow news worthy and noble.

[David Deas]

Whether they support it or not, one recent poll suggests 85% of the troops are still brainwashed into thinking they're over there to get Saddam back for 9/11.

[danzig]

Whether they support it or not, one recent poll suggests 85% of the troops are still brainwashed into thinking they're over there to get Saddam back for 9/11.

Ah yes the Zogby poll...http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centr...n/14061610.htm. Sorry but I dont put much weight into any of Zogby polls.

[Hader]

i doubt that the soldiers are brainwashed. they think for themselves, they have their own thoughts. most of those guys are pretty smart college graduates, etc.

[danzig]

i doubt that the soldiers are brainwashed. they think for themselves, they have their own thoughts. most of those guys are pretty smart college graduates, etc.

Not necessarily grads, 56% of US military has attented college but not necessarily finished, officers however are a different story where 57% are graduates and 38% hold advance degrees. http://www.defenselink.mil/prhome/po...s/contents.htm
but yes they are hardly a group of morons

[Hader]

even though it does sound like what they do, they really don't spend a day taking crap from their officers and shooting insurgents. They keep up with the world and have their own opinions.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Well that percentage of 56% Is wrong you are reading the reserves not active duty. Active duty is lower than that. But I might have read the wrong thing but if I did please correct me. Even if that is correct, it is still not true. Because when someone goes through certain training pertaining to their job it counts as college credit. 56% is a lie. there are over 1,000,000 that is not possible for that many to go to college there is work to be done.

We had people taking online classes in the middle of the Indian Ocean (on a ship, not Diego Garcia)....why do you think it isnt possible? Hell...it is actively encouraged most of the time, and with 100% tuition assistance....I believe its now free to active duty members (tuition is, at least...books may have to be purchased...oh noes!). There were these places, called Navy College Centers, on every base Ive ever been to that have just about every bit of information a person needs (local and online schools, degree plans, they do the CLEP tests, ACTs, SATs, etc) in order to get an education while on active duty. https://www.navycollege.navy.mil/

@Danzig

Nice link. There's some good info there. (goddammit...where the hell is the damn "normal" smiley...there it is) :original:

[danzig]

Well that percentage of 56% Is wrong you are reading the reserves not active duty. Active duty is lower than that. But I might have read the wrong thing but if I did please correct me. Even if that is correct, it is still not true. Because when someone goes through certain training pertaining to their job it counts as college credit. 56% is a lie. there are over 1,000,000 that is not possible for that many to go to college there is work to be done.

There are two listings
Table 3.7. FY 2002 Education of Active Component Enlisted Members, by Service, and Civilian Labor Force 18-44 Years Old (Percent) which is 56%

and
Table 2.7 Levels of Education of FY 2002 Active Component NPS Accessions, by Service, and Civilians 18-24 Years Old (Percent) which is 46.7%

by website definition
College experience data from the Services are defined as those individuals with the following credentials: associate degree, professional nursing diploma, baccalaureate, master's, post master's, doctorate, first-professional, or completed one semester of college.

Remember its 'some' college, the numbers on graduates are only avaiable for officers which stands to reason will be the most education of the military.

[deno59]

Whether they support it or not, one recent poll suggests 85% of the troops are still brainwashed into thinking they're over there to get Saddam back for 9/11.

David Deas: Are you serious they still believe that? They are not that bright then. Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 some people are too easily fooled.

Not necessarily grads, 56% of US military has attented college but not necessarily finished, officers however are a different story where 57% are graduates and 38% hold advance degrees. http://www.defenselink.mil/prhome/po...s/contents.htm
but yes they are hardly a group of morons

Well that percentage of 56% Is wrong you are reading the reserves not active duty. Active duty is lower than that. But I might have read the wrong thing but if I did please correct me. Even if that is correct, it is still not true. Because when someone goes through certain training pertaining to their job it counts as college credit. 56% is a lie. there are over 1,000,000 that is not possible for that many to go to college there is work to be done.

[Last Roman]

These guys, "went there did that". Beside the increasing number of Americans withdrawing their support for the war Veterans begin to speak out. The ones who don't commit suicide that is. Do you have a feling you've seen it before? I bet you do.
This is from a veteran's letter:

I’ve seen you around. I’ve seen you driving your gas guzzling SUV with the “Support Our Troops” ribbon on the back. I’ve seen you wearing your pro-war/pro-bush t-shirts as you walk right past me in my Iraq Veterans Against the War t-shirt as if I don’t exist. And I’ve seen you at anti-war rallies and meetings where I often speak, as you wave your American flag and call me a traitor. In this country we have freedom of speech. But you owe me and every other veteran of this war the respect of listening to our experience.

Your magnet says “support our troops,” but what have you done for us? Not a penny of the proceeds go to us, instead they go to sweatshops in . You say that I am not supporting the troops when I say that they should come home. But I am, because I know that there was no threat to our nation from Saddam Hussein, I know that had no weapons of mass destruction, and I know that we were not welcomed in as liberators. I know that the war was not worth fighting. I know, because I fought there. You say I’m confused. But what do you know about ? You’ve never been there.

You have the audacity to claim that by not supporting the president, I don’t support the troops. Yet, the president chose to send over 160,000 of us to unprepared and without a defined mission. We had no body armor, no vehicle armor, and poor supplies of ammunition. Our families spent thousands of dollars that they did not have to supply us, while President Bush did nothing. In fact he didn’t even scold his Offensive Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, when he told our forward deployed troops, “you go to war with the army you have, not the army you wish you had.” Moreover, the mission was originally about weapons of mass destruction, but there were none. Then it was making a democracy, but yet the “insurgency” worsens. Now the president has decided that in order to honor those who died for nothing, more must die for nothing.

And this is one of the cases that bring the faye of Vietnam war Veterans back to mind:

It is with great sadness that IVAW announces the death of one of our own. Specialist Doug Barber, a member of IVAW, recently took his own life after returning from Iraq. A main contributor to his death was the PTSD he dealth with; the same PTSD that originated from the time Doug spent in the war in Iraq. Another contributing factor was the failure of the VA to provide adequate mental care services to heal the wounds of war.

This too:
All is not okay or right for those of us who return home alive and supposedly well. What looks like normalcy and readjustment is only an illusion to be revealed by time and torment. Some soldiers come home missing limbs and other parts of their bodies. Still others will live with permanent scars from horrific events that no one other than those who served will ever understand.

- Douglas Barber, 2005

I had something like this before in the pit called "a soldier's story". Very similar. Hopefully more soldiers wake up and smell the BS

[David Deas]

Whats wrong with a Zogby poll?

[David Deas]

Most of them?

[Hader]

well, maybe not all of them. the grunts like the privates might not, but officers...

[Lord Rahl]

You know, I'd rather take what I actually hear face to face when I talk to troops rather than one man's story and some obviously slanted polls. On a recent trip to Texas I talked to five seperate military personnel and they tell a very different story than what the rest of you "all knowing" members have said. I get letters from my cousin who was just in Iraq, I talk to two Air Force personnel every Friday when I volunteer at the Downtown Soup Kitchen, and I know a fellow college student who was in Iraq. I'll take their word.

[Garbarsardar]

You know, I'd rather take what I actually hear face to face when I talk to troops rather than one man's story and some obviously slanted polls. On a recent trip to Texas I talked to five seperate military personnel and they tell a very different story than what the rest of you "all knowing" members have said. I get letters from my cousin who was just in Iraq, I talk to two Air Force personnel every Friday when I volunteer at the Downtown Soup Kitchen, and I know a fellow college student who was in Iraq. I'll take their word.

I'll take the word of both your friends and the people whose letters I presented. I don't think that the one refutes the other; I simply say that their opinion deserves to be heard, with the same caution and respect as anyone else involved. Especially considering the optimism of an administration of which the head is not capable to tell which is the right end of a rifle. At least the VP shoots it from time to time...not that this fills me with confidence, considering his aim.

[Emperor Dimitricus]

you know i had a friend come back from iraq recently. he was in a signaller in the british army, rank lance-corporal. He said to me that he hated everyday there. he said his friends, workmates, and soldiers of other regiments did not know why they were there, they were just doing their job. killing iraqis, most of them innocent. knowing that someone could kill you at any time. and for what? what reason has britain got to be in this war?

[Rhah]

you know i had a friend come back from iraq recently. he was in a signaller in the british army, rank lance-corporal. He said to me that he hated everyday there. he said his friends, workmates, and soldiers of other regiments did not know why they were there, they were just doing their job. killing iraqis, most of them innocent. knowing that someone could kill you at any time. and for what? what reason has britain got to be in this war?

Weird, i've got a good mate whose heading out there end of may, in the signals, and also a Lance Corporal.
Anyway, at the moment, his main concern is the beer situation, but something tells me by the time he gets back that will have changed.

BBC Newsnight ran a story last night on this veterans anti-war movement including the march to New Orleans. The marchers themselves never seemed to number over a couple of hundred at their peak and probably less than half of these were veterans. On reaching New Orleans they were greeted by a crowd of well....50 people. These men are entitled to their views but judging by their numbers and the support they recieved, they are very much in the minority within the US military. Every war will bring out a few soldiers who suddenly decide they don't like it, but the majority just get on with the job. Maybe they should look more closely at the contract when signing and realise you don't get the right to choose only popular wars when you enlist.

I was under the impression that the majority of Americans were now not happy about the war. The proper Anti-war movement was always quite small in America, nothing compared to during the 60's anyway. But, if the polls are to be believed (and there must be at least some truth to them) then the majority of Americans are against the war. (especially now that is become an "incoveniance" to them)
Guess they're too lazy to make their voices heard.

[danzig]

I was under the impression that the majority of Americans were now not happy about the war. The proper Anti-war movement was always quite small in America, nothing compared to during the 60's anyway. But, if the polls are to be believed (and there must be at least some truth to them) then the majority of Americans are against the war. (especially now that is become an "incoveniance" to them)
Guess they're too lazy to make their voices heard.

There is a difference between not being happy with Iraq and its outcome and being an antiwar protester, if you look generally anti war protesters are about on the level of intelligence as abortion clinic ones. So its not that its being lazy its just rational people dont feel to the need to run around carrying idiotic signs. Remember too despite all the exposure of the 60s antiwar crowd it wasnt them who stopped vietnam, it was average middle class person who simply turned against the war not the loud and obnixious fools running around with catchy chants and signs. Check http://www.protestwarrior.com/ for amusing views of how these antiwar protests end up..its quite amusing and alot of times their fake signs during these protest fit right in with the REAL ones.