[Dead] Crusades

[Jingo Eugene]

I had an idea for an RPG. I am not sure if I will be able to personally run it, but the basic premises is that the First Crusade has begun in the Levant. The player would take the role of a Crusading Knight, maybe an officer with a small force under his command. And he would take part in the establishing of the Crusader States, and then try to defend them from the Saracens. Or a player could take the role of a Saracen defender, trying to hold off the Crusaders invading their land. Once again with a perhaps a small force under their command. Their job would be to fight for either the Seljuk Turks or the Fatimid Caliphate.

I am personally debating if I should let players play as the Crusading leaders akin to Godfrey of Boullion or Robert of Flanders, or if I should have them all play as lesser knights with smaller armies under his command.

Conquest of land would work like this, the map is in a thumbnail, but victory in a battle won't necessarily decide whether the land that the city is on goes is conquered or not. Instead, there will be several battles that take place in that one province. For example

Judea, Crusaders win five battles in it, and Saracens four. The Crusaders would take over the area of Judea, but only the area closest to the coast because of how close the battle ratio was.

Factions-

Purple- Byzantines
Green-Seljuks
Red- Armenian State
Orange- Fatimids

As crusaders, you'd start in Armenia just for simplicity's sake, and you would begin crusading. You can establish the historical states, or something completely new. (IE- Crusader State of Alexandria, as an example)

[Celsius]

this seems more like an IH than an RPG

[Jingo Eugene]

It would, but it would be more revolving around individual characters and the RP aspect of it than most IH's.

However, I am thinking of scrapping the whole "small armies" tidbit and having people just play as soldiers and knights. That'd seem more RPG-like.

[chaplain118]

somebody's been watching Kingdom of Heaven

A lot of things will haven to be taken into consideration for an RPG of the Crusades to work.

The religious struggle is the first and foremost factor that must be considered. There must be both sides of the struggle otherwise it becomes stale and utterly uninteresting.

The politics of the Haute Cour is also something to be considered since it directly led to the destruction of the Crusader states.

Finally, how is this any different from GSTK?

[Jingo Eugene]

somebody's been watching Kingdom of Heaven

Never actually watched it. Heard it was good though.

A lot of things will haven to be taken into consideration for an RPG of the Crusades to work.

Of course, and once again this is mainly a proposal. If I can get everything sorted out and interest racked, I may start it. But this is mostly just a suggestion for the time being.

The religious struggle is the first and foremost factor that must be considered. There must be both sides of the struggle otherwise it becomes stale and utterly uninteresting.

This goes without saying. And of course there'd be both sides, it'd be biased, silly and unrealistic to only be crusaders. The Saracens kinda played a large role.

The politics of the Haute Cour is also something to be considered since it directly led to the destruction of the Crusader states.

I am thinking of ways to implement that. As I said in the OP, there isn't a 100% chance things will turn out as they did historically. That'd make it boring.

Finally, how is this any different from GSTK?

GSTK kind of dominates almost all aspects of the medieval world, but it's center focus is England and the isles. Meanwhile, this focuses entirely on the Crusades, and odds are, you won't be hearing about the conflicts at home while on campaign, due to the fact that the news would have to either

1. Travel through the Mediterranean Sea, and risk being shipwrecked/sunk
2. Travel through many nations, into the Byzantine Empire, into Turkish territory and into the Holy Land
3. Down from Spain, through Muslim-dominated North Africa and reach you.

So odds are, you aren't going to be getting consistent news. A war could be over by the time you hear it's begun.

That, and the fact that this will inevitably lead to more "pew pew" less internal drama. At least at the very beginning.

[Lord William]

i would play this

[Jingo Eugene]

So I have made a quick revision of the concept to make it less of an IH and more of an RPG.

In this RPG, players can take on the role of either a Crusader or a Saracen.

Crusaders: You will have two different classes, and several different roles. Knight, and Peasant.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

If you are a Knight, then you are a landowner and a vassal to a minor noble, and through extension and the feudal system, you are sworn to a King or a powerful Duke. As a Knight, you are better equipped and trained for fighting, and will normally be put on horseback, though you may have the option not to. Especially in the more rugged terrain.

If you are a Peasant, then your story will be unique. You are a serf of a noble, maybe a knight, and you work the land in return for a tiny portion of it. You have probably been levied into the Crusading armies by your respective king or noble. Normally less equipped, but may still end up fighting horseback if you have enough skill with a horse.

Saracens are a WIP, as I am still researching their social classes and whatnot.

Now, you will be able to take on a different role as a fighter, which are the following.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Heavy Infantry- The staple of a medieval army, you are normally brutish, built for crushing your foe with a mighty weapon.
2. Light Infantry- More versatile, ideal for rocky and wooded areas, these men are less armored, but fight with more precision and agility to their heavy counterparts.
3. Spearmen- Sort of a middleman between Heavy and Light, large shields and powerful spears, used to break a horseman's charge right in the middle, vulnerable to flanking however.
4. Archer- You prefer to pick off an enemy from a range rather than melee combat. While able to take out a distanced enemy, you are vulnerable to fast cavalry.
5. Light Cavalry- Fast and furious, used for skirmishing and rough terrain to take out a lightly-armored foe quickly.
6. Heavy Cavalry- Slower, but just as dangerous as the Light Cavalry, these men are known for head-on assaults and using their weight to crush their enemies before their hooves.

With these five classes, you will fight with different styles, and will be more effective against certain enemies.

As Crusaders, you will have the option to join the Crusades as a member of the following factions.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

1. Kingdom of England

2. Holy Roman Empire

3. France

Over time, the crusade will grow and new factions may be added in over time. Your allies consist of...

Cicilian Kingdom of Armenia (red)
Byzantine Empire

and your enemies are...

Seljuk Sultanate
Fatimid Caliphate

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

For the Saracens, you are either a member of

1. The Seljuk Turk Empire

2. The Fatimid Caliphate

or

3. Almohad

And your enemies are
The Crusader States
Byzantine Empire
Cicilian Kingdom of Armenia

Your job is more simplified than that of the Crusaders. Defend the Holy Land at all costs.

The first few turns will be spent fighting and trying to establish various Crusader states. Once (or if) such states are established, fighting to defend/crush them and expand/contain their expansion will begin. At this point, players will have probably risen through the ranks and be given a small army in the name of their certain state.

If your state is destroyed or your kingdom withdraws from the Crusades, then you will be able to either

Change loyalty- If your nation withdraws from the Crusade, you will be able to either go back to your country and erase the character, or you will be able to change your loyalty to one of the still existing states. This is the same if your state is destroyed.

The game will have a victor in the end. Maybe.

Victory for Crusaders- Establish and maintain control of the Holy Land for X amount of time.
Victory for Saracens- Destruction of the Crusaders and removal of Cicilians and Byzantines from the map.

Off-the-map (OTM) events will have influence on gameplay. ie- if Bulgaria destroys Constantinople and removes the Byzantines, then the Byzantine Empire will cease to exist, despite Bulgaria's non-existence on the map.

Little bit ADD, but I think it's okay. Yay? Nay?

[The Stig]

I like this idea. I'll do some research and see what I can find on the subject. Perhaps the peasant should be renamed to pilgrim and be a class for both sides. I think that Orthodoxy should also be implemented with the Byzzies amd Armenia. I would stay away from making a list of forced countries. It will be easier and make it more accessible if you let the players chose whatever they like, as long as it makes sense.

[Lord William]

You speak of knights but will the lords and kings be played by us or npc

[Jingo Eugene]

You speak of knights but will the lords and kings be played by us or npc

NPC. The Lords and Kings are the leadership, and will be played by me/NPC. (I am basically NPC, )

This is to prevent unorthodox/ridiculous/out of character movements like...

Prince Edward abandons the Crusade and moves to sack Constantinople instead.

[The Stig]

Prince Edward abandons the Crusade and moves to sack Constantinople instead.

What's wrong with that? All the ortho players are called to stop him, the caths can join him or negotiate, and the muses try to take advantage of the situation. It is simply a bad move.

[Jingo Eugene]

What's wrong with that? All the ortho players are called to stop him, the caths can join him or negotiate, and the muses try to take advantage of the situation. It is simply a bad move.

I meant just him randomly deciding to do that without anyone's consent or any good explanation, realistically, it was only the Fourth Crusade that made moves like that against Constantinople. And even then, it was because Venice pushed them to.

[Lord William]

I don't like the idea of npc leadership, the idea of roleplaying is to divert from history creating your own story otherwise we are just reenacting. I'm thinking gstk clerical and nobility structure is what we should implement

[Jingo Eugene]

I don't like the idea of npc leadership, the idea of roleplaying is to divert from history creating your own story otherwise we are just reenacting. I'm thinking gstk clerical and nobility structure is what we should implement

Well it wouldn't be exactly like history, mainly because over time, players would eventually come into command of small armies and be changing history themselves. But not necessarily right away, the last thing I want is entire armies of Crusaders fleeing the field before a battle begins because the player's nerve broke OOC.

[Lord William]

its the highs and lows that make the game, no one likes stability it is boring and predictable. it is not fun having someone else making all the decisions, otherwise count me out

[Jingo Eugene]

I am part of the IH community, so I know how unrealistic and idiotic choices can make in a game.

In an Alternate History Interactive History game, we had a player playing the 3rd or so largest nation in the world.

So he gets attacked by the 7th or so largest country in the world.

so he ends up surrendering 1/3 of his nation to one nation, letting another 1/3 of the nation become independent without even a single battle. Imagine situations like that in this game, kinda stupid right? Instability is fun, but to be honest, it has to go into the hands of reasonable and smart people. I am not guaranteed that on this site.

That, and your idea would mean that I'd have a limited number of positions, once more making it an Interactive History rather than an RPG. The only alternative would to make a few people the leaders, and everyone else minor knights, but that'd casue a lot of uproar in the game. I want to have a lot of people involved, maybe not as many as GSTK, but at least as much a Roman Struggle, if not more.

[Jingo Eugene]

All righty. Basic rules set for Crusaders. I am goignt o ahve a heck of a time making one for the Saracens.

Crusader Ruleset

Crusaders- Class A. Knight- Heavily Armored, highly influential, +5% to income B. Pilgrim- Lightly armored, agile, incredibly zealous, +5% of religious zeal Role A. Infantry- Fights on foot, heavily or lightly armored. a. Heavy Armor- +10% armor, -10% speed b. Light Armor- -10% armor, +10% speed c. Bow- Allows firing of arrows, +10% damage B. Cavalry- Fights on horseback, can be light or heavily armored a. Heavy Armor- +10% charge, -10% maneuver b. Light Armor- -10% charge, +10% maneuver c. (Byzantine/NPC only)- Bow- Allows firing of arrows, +10% damage C. Artillery- Fights with machines, catapults/bastillas, mainly used to demolish large portions of enemies or fortifications. Faction- Which kingdom your knight/pilgrim is from, this will decide who's command you are under and where you will go. Participation in Crusades will fluctuate, but Crusader States will always join Crusades. You may switch your loyalties from a Crusading nation to a Crusader state if you wish. (Examples) A. England B. France C. Holy Roman Empire D. Spanish Nations E. Portugal F. Venice G. Hungary Money- Knights will start out with 50 crowns and Pilgrims with 25 crowns, Crowns will be the currency for the Crusader states in this game. Money may be spent on... A. Armor (Transition from Light → Medium → Heavy, etc. Or from Heavy → Medium → Light) B. Weapons (Choose from a various assortment of weapons, you may own more than one, but only one may be used in a battle.) C. Horses (Can be used for battles or peaceful use) D. Increase Influence (Bribes, funding certain characters, etc.) E. Purchasing Army/Upkeep Armies- Over time, Knights may become powerful leaders in the Crusader States, and perhaps lead their militaries. At a certain point, a King of a European nation or a Crusader State may award you with a small army. Battles will be moderated and instantaneously finished when deployments are set. (Generals did not have very strong control over their army in the heat of battle, so it is very much random) Battles can be used to try to claim a region or a portion of a region. Titles- And you may end up with titles that equate you to counts and dukes of Medieval Europe, perhaps even a King! When a Crusader State is established, you will have the opportunity to claim a powerful title within the State that increases your income and the size of your army.