Christianity - how things have changed!

[Zenith Darksea]

Which denomination of Christianity do you consider to be closest both in spirit and practice to the original form of Christianity in the early centuries after Jesus' death? Considering the rather wide-ranging array of possibilities, it would be interesting to see what people thought. Please give reasons for your answers, where possible.

[The White Knight]

Probably Catholic, simply because they directly come from the early churches, having underwent no 'revolutions' or 'new ideas'.

I might (I probably will be) wrong though... I'm anxiously awaiting correction.

[Kanaric]

Probably Catholic, simply because they directly come from the early churches, having underwent no 'revolutions' or 'new ideas'.

I might (I probably will be) wrong though... I'm anxiously awaiting correction.

You are wrong, the catholic church changed most everything that Martin Luther wanted after a while, so they had PLENTY of new ideas. Constantly.

I could cite 100s of examples of new ideas.

[Reidy]

Catholic, but even that is WAY WAY WAY WAY far off from what it was originally (what with all the incense and Saints). The reason I say this is because ALL other denominations are branches off from the original Catholic Church.

[Zenith Darksea]

What, including Eastern Orthodoxy and Gnosticism?

[Garbarsardar]

"None", is not a option in the poll?

[Zenith Darksea]

I said 'closest', not 'exactly the same'. The sense of gradation means that one of them has to be the answer.

[Reidy]

What is "Gnosticism"?

[Last Roman]

What is "Gnosticism"?

I think the same thing as an agnostic (but I'm probably wrong )

edit: nm, I know I'm wrong....ignore that

[The Fish]

What is "Gnosticism"?

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/conten...060213fa_fact2
This is an amazing article from the New Yorker about the various incarnations of Mary Magdelene in different Christian denominations. It's long, but at the end it talks about Gnosticism, which is a very interesting early branch of Christianity, and which competed early on with the orthodoxy of the fledling Catholic Church. The Catholic church's teaching eventually prevailed, and became the Christianity most people are familiar with now (i.e. 12 disciples, 4 Gospels, etc.). Gnosticism held that Jesus had women disciples in addition to the men, and has different Gospels, and other things most modern Christians would be totally unfamiliar with.

A great read, in my opinion.

[Kino]

Deleted by user.

[The Fish]

If you mean apostles, Catholics do believe there were only 12 apostles and they were men. If you are talking disciples there were both men and women that followed Jesus.

Mary Magdalene wasn't a disciple but was cleary the smartest of Jesus's followers, she understands his parables and she was the first witness to the ressurection. So I think she is still a very important figure in Modern Chrisitianity.

Well, I always thought Jesus had 12 disciples by conventional Church teachings...I'm not a Biblical scholar (nor a Christian) so unfortunately I'm not 100% sure about whether the apostles and the disciples were equivalent, though I always thought they were. The New Yorker article I cited seems to equate the two. Anyway, regarding the differing views of Mary Magdalene, the New Yorker article also talks about how in different traditions her roles are very different. Apparently the Gnostic tradition (which is very similar/the same as Coptic Christianity) includes a Gospel of Mary Magdalene, as well as 7 female apostles (disciples?). From the article:

In Greek, gnosis means “knowledge.” To the Gnostic communities, it meant a kind of spiritual understanding—the goal of all believers—that was achieved only through intense self-examination, typically accompanied by visions. The Gospel of Mary shows the Magdalene as an expert in this practice. It also presents her as a leader, full of confidence and zeal. Another of the Gnostic texts, “Pistis Sophia” (“Faith Wisdom”), takes the form of a dialogue between Jesus and the disciples. Of the forty-six questions put to Jesus, thirty-nine come from the Magdalene. Peter finally complains that no one else has a chance to speak. Another feature, then, of the Gnostic portrait of the Magdalene is the quarrel between her and Peter. Jesus repeatedly defends her, and that is the final, critical point about the Gnostic Magdalene: Jesus’ preference for her. In another Gospel, she is referred to as his “companion,” whom he often kissed. Some readers have taken this to mean that she was his mistress or wife, but kissing was common among people in the Middle East at that time, and the companionship seems to be based on Jesus’ conviction of her superior understanding. When the disciples ask him, “Why do you love her more than all of us?,” he answers, uncomfortingly, “If a blind person and one who can see are both in darkness, they are the same. When the light comes, one who can see will see the light, and the blind person will stay in darkness.”

So, while the orthodox Church was busy eliminating women from positions of power, the Gnostic sects seem to have been following a different route. One of their texts says that Jesus had seven women as well as twelve men among his disciples.

I think it's fascinating how many of the core ideas of Christianity and Jesus's life, which many people accept as dogmatic, could actually have been very different had history simply taken a different turn.

[Søren]

I think that all denominations, taken as general, are very far from the practices and teachings of the early church. Instead, there are some in each denomination which will try and return to more of a biblical (i.e. early church like) interpretation.

Incidentally, you probably should have included the Brethren chruch in that in that - a church, which I do not agree with in many ways, personally, but are as a whole far more concerned with the teaching of the early church than thse such as the Catholics, Anglicans & Greek Orthadox churches.

Frankly, I don't see how anyone would vote for the Catholic church in this, because of their creation of a whole new hierachy - non existant at the time you speak of; as does the Greek Orthadox church and also the Anglicans to a lesser extent.

[GodNeptune]

I don't think that there ever was a singular original form of Christianity. After the death of Christ, there arose two major sects of Christianity that held widely diverging religious views. The gnostics were somewhat liberal in their views and regarded the Old Testament as completely unimportant. Their brand of Christianity incorporated many aspects of eastern mysticism and included a large number of texts not accepted by other christians. One of the gnostic texts, the Aquarian gospel, covers the years of Christ's life that aren't touched upon in the traditional gospels. It has him traveling throughout the east and learning philosophy from eastern teachers. The other major branch, the paulines, were very conservative and regarded the Old Testament as still relevant. One could say that the pauline form borrowed many elements from traditional roman paganism.

[Son of the Empire]

Yes, Christianity have changed. We aren't screaming maniacs with swords anymore! We aren't crusing around the world with Crusades anymore either. We are a little more liberal now than before... And that's all...

[Darth Wong]

Who actually knows what the early religion was really like, since the only real records of it come from the early Catholic church? As anyone following the child molestation scandal knows, the Church is not particularly good at being forthcoming about its own flaws.

[Zenith Darksea]

Well, to be fair to Church hierarchies, we do know that the Church at the time of the First Ecumenical Council in Nicaea had a very substantial network of bishoprics, dioceses and so forth. Historical evidence suggests that the Church Hierarchy in the very early centuries AD developed pretty much in line with Roman Imperial administration, particularly in the Greek half of the empire.

[LSJ]

I'm not sure about an answer to this question.
The original church was more free, where certain "activities" were more acceptable, but murder was still horrible. A lot of the modern Protestant churches are most closely related to the original churches of europe.
I mean the church before it became an official state religion.
The Roman Catholic church is probably one of the farthest away. They were the version of Christianity that made stricter rules on many issues and banned certain activities.
Like most religions, the original is freer; the religion in the mid-life is the toughest, and as society evolves it lessens its grasp over issues and allows more freedom, like the many types of "Paganism" among the Greeks and Italians, as well as Christianity. Islam is still in its middle stage, where the religion is almost as strict as hundreds of years ago. The societies in Islam have not evolved in the same ways as the original Christian nations, ex: homosexuality.

[IamthePope]

[QUOTE=DarkProphet].
The Roman Catholic church is probably one of the farthest away. They were the version of Christianity that made stricter rules on many issues and banned certain activities.
Like most religions, the original is freer;[QUOTE]

, I guess this is how protestantism is rationalized. It strikes me as odd that a religion that branches off from the original continuous church can possibly be more like the original than the one it branched off from. Eastern Orthodoxy seems to be a valid argument as it and the Roman Catholic Church are both halves of the original "United" Roman Catholic Church.

This question seems irrelevant though. The Roman Catholic Church is a continuously evolving church. The fact that practices that weren't around in the beginning are around today does not make them any less valid. The Doctrine of the original church has not been replaced, it has only evolved to its present form.

It still blows my mind that people can consider Protestantism to be more akin to the original church than the continuous incarnation of it.

[Kscott]

Calvinism

Not in its original form, but I am a Presbyterian, and I can tell you, are Church is very like what I imagine the early Churces were like..

Erm, I fail to see the logic in the Catholic and Orthodox churches being like the original. They are the Christianity corrupted by Rome. The Protestants reformed in order to change the practices that were added by the Church...