My case against Muhammed

[Kscott]

Ok, I am not argueing religion here, simply the character of Muhammed. Lets look into the facts here:

1)

In March of 624, Muhammed led some 300 warriors in a raid on a Meccan merchant caravan.

Being God's greatest messenger, I find it amusing he woul stoop so low as to raid a caravan. He commited other military acts, but I find this to be the lowest point of his military career.

2)He had a total of 11 wifes, which to me not only shows he viewed women nothing more than sex objects, but also he broke his own rule(4).

3) Mohammed ordered many assassinations
Ka’b bin Ashraf
Abu Rafi’
Abu Sufyan
al-Aswad
Khalid b. Sufyan

Clearly, not killing anyone doesn't apply to Muhammed either.

4)Execution of 600 Jews

Death by decapitation for around 600 men (some Islamic sources say 900), and enslavement for the women and children (he took a beautiful Jewess as his own prize). Muhammad was wise enough to have six clans execute two Jews each in order to stop any blood-feuds. The rest of the executions were probably carried out by his fellow Emigrants from Mecca and lasted the whole night.

Simply exterminating his enemies, nice...


Im sure there is more, these are just some of the obvious things. Are these really admirable qualities for a man who is so devoutly worshiped that saying this things in many Islamic countries would get me killed.

*note: I posted facts and my opinions on them. Can everyone please remain civil about this sensitive issue?

[Richard the Lionheart]

I'm not going to participate in this thread. Instead, I'm going to keep my eyes on it.

So, all of you better remember to remain civil and respectful. :wink:

[MasterAdnin]

1) Being God's greatest messenger, I find it amusing he woul stoop so low as to raid a caravan. He commited other military acts, but I find this to be the lowest point of his military career.

Yes, I'm sure that he would, except for the fact that this most likely happend when he was trying to regain control of Medina or Mecca.

2)He had a total of 11 wifes, which to me not only shows he viewed women nothing more than sex objects, but also he broke his own rule(4).

Actually, we studied this in sunday school. He had 11 wives due to the fact that many of them were widows and he supported them. He also did not have sex with many of them. Most of them he just married due to the fact they were widows.

3) Mohammed ordered many assassinations
Ka’b bin Ashraf
Abu Rafi’
Abu Sufyan
al-Aswad
Khalid b. Sufyan

The thing about Muhammad is he was a political leader as well as religious, and all political leaders have assasains.

Clearly, not killing anyone doesn't apply to Muhammed either.

4)Execution of 600 Jews


Simply exterminating his enemies, nice...

To prevent blood fueds, you said it yourself.

Im sure there is more, these are just some of the obvious things. Are these really admirable qualities for a man who is so devoutly worshiped that saying this things in many Islamic countries would get me killed.

If you actually look at the background of these events/characteristics, you will see that many of them are actually for the greater good. Muhammad was, as I said before, a Political leader as well as Religious, which placed him in difficult situations, and is what seperates him from, say Jesus.

Peace,
Adnan

[Kscott]

Yes, I'm sure that he would, except for the fact that this most likely happend when he was trying to regain control of Medina or Mecca.

raiding a caravaan isn't a very honorable thing, regardless of the situation

Actually, we studied this in sunday school. He had 11 wives due to the fact that many of them were widows and he supported them. He also did not have sex with many of them. Most of them he just married due to the fact they were widows.

well, some of them were widows. From what I see 5 were. That leaves six others including the six year old Aisha.

The thing about Muhammad is he was a political leader as well as religious, and all political leaders have assasains.

So murder is ok if your in a high position?

To prevent blood fueds, you said it yourself.

Muhammad was wise enough to have six clans execute two Jews each in order to stop any blood-feuds.
THAT was to stop blood-fueds.

If you actually look at the background of these events/characteristics, you will see that many of them are actually for the greater good. Muhammad was, as I said before, a Political leader as well as Religious, which placed him in difficult situations, and is what seperates him from, say Jesus.

Jesus wasn't in a hard position? I thought he was killed for his message. Surely he could have fled and waged war like muhammed, Id say he could have gathered up enough men for it, however he choose not too

So before saying thing on the holy prophet you should read his full story and then you well get the meaning on what you said above.....

I have read, his actions can not be justified though, atleast by most religions standards..

[MasterAdnin]

raiding a caravaan isn't a very honorable thing, regardless of the situation

I'm sure it wasn't, but could you give details. I would like to see the background and the events which made him do this.

well, some of them were widows. From what I see 5 were. That leaves six others including the six year old Aisha.

More info please.

So murder is ok if your in a high position?

No, but the reason behind it was probably for the greater good. Plus, as I have said, he was a Political leader and had to make difficult decisions.

Jesus wasn't in a hard position? I thought he was killed for his message. Surely he could have fled and waged war like muhammed, Id say he could have gathered up enough men for it, however he choose not too

Jesus was not in a difficult position. According to Christianity, he was doing exactly what he was meant to, and according to Islam, Muhammad was doing exactly what he was meant to, to govern the new religion.


PEace out,
Adnan

[katsusand]

Read about him here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=47061

So before saying thing on the holy prophet you should read his full story and then you well get the meaning on what you said above.....

Salam....

[Ahiga]

Ok, I am not argueing religion here, simply the character of Muhammed. Lets look into the facts here:

1)

Being God's greatest messenger, I find it amusing he woul stoop so low as to raid a caravan. He commited other military acts, but I find this to be the lowest point of his military career.

2)He had a total of 11 wifes, which to me not only shows he viewed women nothing more than sex objects, but also he broke his own rule(4).

3) Mohammed ordered many assassinations
Ka’b bin Ashraf
Abu Rafi’
Abu Sufyan
al-Aswad
Khalid b. Sufyan

Clearly, not killing anyone doesn't apply to Muhammed either.

4)Execution of 600 Jews


Simply exterminating his enemies, nice...


Im sure there is more, these are just some of the obvious things. Are these really admirable qualities for a man who is so devoutly worshiped that saying this things in many Islamic countries would get me killed.

*note: I posted facts and my opinions on them. Can everyone please remain civil about this sensitive issue?

Surely Muhammad is not as squeaky clean as you might claim Jesus is, but to me, that makes it all the more a reality. There are few individuals who have infalliable personalities, and you can likely find something to discredit the many which pop into mind. If there is a God, and it's the one of the Book religions, would they always seek out someone who is practically without sin?

A prophet who kills his enemies compared to a god who smites an entire town for his view of sin. My arguement is not very valid beyond personal opinion, but I would find far more understanding in Muhammad's actions than I would the god of the Old testament.

2)He had a total of 11 wifes, which to me not only shows he viewed women nothing more than sex objects, but also he broke his own rule(4).

Actually, the Koran deals with multiple wives far more than the image we have ingrained in our heads, of sexually-addicted Sultans in the Ottoman Empire. I forget the specific verse, but it conveys the meaning that you should not have multiple wives unless you can treat them all equally. And at least in the book about the history Islam (not written by a muslim, and perhaps as 'invalid' as one would be which is written by an overly critical christian or westerner) I read, it does not give way into thinking he viewed them as sex objects, but rather, in the society of that period, a woman without a husband was very poorly off. It might even be a case that he did not have sex with all of them, though I am too lazy to look it up.

Being God's greatest messenger, I find it amusing he woul stoop so low as to raid a caravan. He commited other military acts, but I find this to be the lowest point of his military career.

It's part of his people's culture. As I said before, a prophet who is far more human is a lot less fantasy to me, than the infalliable Jesus or the other prophets of Christianity (Whom I do not know for sure if they were without any notable sin). Muhammad is someone I could see myself interacting with or speaking to. Jesus...he's in the same ranks as Heracles or Gilgamesh, personally.

Those that wish to make their figures seem perfect have something to hide. Those that do not take to so cover their figures with a golden shroud, in my mind, are more truthful.

4)Execution of 600 Jews


Simply exterminating his enemies, nice...

Soddom and Gommoreah. :wink:

I can also dig up the book I have on the history of Islam at a later period, but to my knowledge, it was not a destruction simply because they were jews (On the contrary, he sought to 'work' with them), but was only the jews who either attacked him, or broke a n agreement.

To compare, he also evidently offered amnesty to all the citizens of Mecca when he and his entorage-army returned from Medina.


Annd I realize I posted after particular questions were answered. Woopsie!

[Kscott]

Surely Muhammad is not as squeaky clean as you might claim Jesus is, but to me, that makes it all the more a reality. There are few individuals who have infalliable personalities, and you can likely find something to discredit the many which pop into mind.

Even if Jesus isnt infalliable, which to the non-christian he obviously isnt, his actions are much more honorable than Muhammad.

If there is a God, and it's the one of the Book religions, would they always seek out someone who is practically without sin?

Becuase you are supposed to emulate gods teachings and surely you would want a good first example. I think Muhammad has been settign a bad example for a long time.

A prophet who kills his enemies compared to a god who smites an entire town for his view of sin. My arguement is not very valid beyond personal opinion, but I would find far more understanding in Muhammad's actions than I would the god of the Old testament.

Actually, the Koran deals with multiple wives far more than the image we have ingrained in our heads, of sexually-addicted Sultans in the Ottoman Empire. I forget the specific verse, but it conveys the meaning that you should not have multiple wives unless you can treat them all equally.

Even so, no more than four.

I read, it does not give way into thinking he viewed them as sex objects, but rather, in the society of that period, a woman without a husband was very poorly off. It might even be a case that he did not have sex with all of them, though I am too lazy to look it up.

The man even had concubines..

Muhammad is someone I could see myself interacting with or speaking to. Jesus...he's in the same ranks as Heracles or Gilgamesh, personally.

Again, even take Jesus out of God mod and you still get a much more ethical prophet. Muhammad is a person who if I met in person I would detest.

Those that wish to make their figures seem perfect have something to hide. Those that do not take to so cover their figures with a golden shroud, in my mind, are more truthful.

Not really. Christianity claims Jesus is Gods son, thus infalliable. If this were not true, then the basis of Christianity is false. So you can't use Jesus's infalliblity against Christianity, unless you look into it from WHY he would be infallible.

Soddom and Gommoreah. :wink:

hardly a case to defend Muhammed.

I can also dig up the book I have on the history of Islam at a later period, but to my knowledge, it was not a destruction simply because they were jews (On the contrary, he sought to 'work' with them), but was only the jews who either attacked him, or broke a n agreement.

They sided with his enemies...

To compare, he also evidently offered amnesty to all the citizens of Mecca when he and his entorage-army returned from Medina.

they converted

[MasterAdnin]

Even if Jesus isnt infalliable, which to the non-christian he obviously isnt, his actions are much more honorable than Muhammad.

Depends on who you ask.

Becuase you are supposed to emulate gods teachings and surely you would want a good first example. I think Muhammad has been settign a bad example for a long time.

Muhammad was doing what the Quran had written. He was following the Quran, which contained many of the same verses as the Bible, and Torah.

Again, even take Jesus out of God mod and you still get a much more ethical prophet. Muhammad is a person who if I met in person I would detest.

Prophet Muhammad, has a different mission than Jesus. You can not compare them in that way.

they converted

Kscott, Muhammad never foced anyone to convert, they all converted willingly, plus, Muslims never forced anyone to convert, unlike the Christians later on.

Peace out,
Adnan

[Sétanta]

The thing about Muhammad is he was a political leader as well as religious, and all political leaders have assasains.

I am not sure all would be correct here.

I don't know how to make this sound nice, and I can't sugar coat it so I will just say it.

<Please remain respectful> However he was a very good leader and I wouldn't be surprised if he was a prophet of some kind (in a Christian sense) but not one that follows the laws of God, supposedly passed to him very well.

His actions were done as Adnan said in personal defense and following parts of the Koran, but that doesn't excuse them.

And Islam being a peaceful religion comes more from his followers than from Mohammed himself

[Last Roman]

plus, Muslims never forced anyone to convert, unlike the Christians later on.

proof please? It is true that much of the early converts were willing, but more than just a few who were forced to convert at the point of the sword.

IE, the north african pirates in the 16th century, when they captured a Christian ship, if they didn't convert they were usually sold into slavery or killed. Or how about today, with that Afghan man, if he didn't convert back, he could have been executed.

[Sher Khan]

Being God's greatest messenger, I find it amusing he woul stoop so low as to raid a caravan. He commited other military acts, but I find this to be the lowest point of his military career.

He not only was God's messenger, but also the political leader of the people.

I also find the ethnocentricity in your statement amusing. I wouldn't raid caravans, but this was the way of life, the way of war in Arabia. It's pretty much part of the culture then. This is like telling off the Steppe hordes that their horse archers are barbaric and low blows in war. Failure to capture caravan routes would result in an obvious victory over the people of Medina, as the Meccans were stronger and richer.

He had a total of 11 wifes, which to me not only shows he viewed women nothing more than sex objects, but also he broke his own rule(4).

Except for Khadija and Aisha, the marriages were very political, and even Aisha had some politics to play. A few that lacked political background or motivation had the lives of the women at stake, as a widowed lady in Arabia had no hope but to remarry (patriarchial system and all, very common everywhere). So he married them at his own cost as a sort of charity - and this also ensured them their protection and survival even if they were to be widowed by his death. He also, having 11 wives, didn't have that many children. I believe 2, but I'm not sure, were born. Certainly, if they were objects, he'd have copulated all the time with them? They can hardly be sex objects if, you know, he didn't have much sex with them.

More to come later when i get more time.

[IamthePope]

Ya, there is good amount of anti-Mohommed arguments. Christians have to have some way to explain the "Muhammed Event" just as Jews,Buddists, and Hindus have to explain "Jesus Event" to reconcile history with faith.

Heres what I consider to be the quintisential argument against Muhammed:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10424a.htm

The Catholic Encyclopedia is a great source of information

[JP226]

Depends on who you ask.

uhhhhh.... your kidding write??? Since when did jesus go about conquering cities like muhammod or however you spell his name??

Muhammad was doing what the Quran had written. He was following the Quran, which contained many of the same verses as the Bible, and Torah.

he wrote the koran...

Prophet Muhammad, has a different mission than Jesus. You can not compare them in that way.

how so?? Their missions was, in narrowing it as much as possible, to spread the word. One chose by the sword, the other by the word

Kscott, Muhammad never foced anyone to convert, they all converted willingly, plus, Muslims never forced anyone to convert, unlike the Christians later on.

SO those 10,000 troops that marched to conquer mecca weren't bringing a forced islam???

[MasterAdnin]

uhhhhh.... your kidding write??? Since when did jesus go about conquering cities like muhammod or however you spell his name??

I didn't say Jesus conquered cities did I?

he wrote the koran...

Uh...How should I put this?...He didn't write it. He finished it, and it was supposed to be from God, and Jesus was part of it as well.

how so?? Their missions was, in narrowing it as much as possible, to spread the word. One chose by the sword, the other by the word

Jesus was there to spread the message of God. Muhammad was there to guide the new found Islamic civilization in the right direction.

SO those 10,000 troops that marched to conquer mecca weren't bringing a forced islam???

They conquered the city, and did not force anyone to convert, unlike Christian crusaders who killed Eastern Orthodox Christians as well as Muslims and Jews.
am not sure all would be correct here.

<Please remain respectful.> However he was a very good leader and I wouldn't be surprised if he was a prophet of some kind (in a Christian sense) but not one that follows the laws of God, supposedly passed to him very well.

When did Muhammad break his own law? When and if he did, was for the good of the people. I am glad that you atleast think he was a good leader.

His actions were done as Adnan said in personal defense and following parts of the Koran, but that doesn't excuse them.

Not in personal defence, Political defence. He had to commit some actions to ensure Islam would continue on.


Peace out,
Adnan

[Richard the Lionheart]

[Moderator Hat Off]

Guys it's almost impossible to compare Muhammed and Jesus. They were both men of their times and societies. And they both lived during very different times and within very different societies.

Also, forced conversions are not allowed in Islam:

"Let there be no compulsion in the religion: Clearly the Right Path (i.e.Islam) is distinct from the crooked path". (2:256)

[/Moderator Hat Off]

[Sher Khan]

3) Mohammed ordered many assassinations
Ka’b bin Ashraf
Abu Rafi’
Abu Sufyan
al-Aswad
Khalid b. Sufyan

I've yet to find a source that isn't a hadith or sunnah verse that deals with this issue. So far, I'm reading through al-Tabani, which seems promising in this matter. Again, I'll try again later.

Execution of 600 Jews

Simply exterminating his enemies, nice...

I'd rather blame Sa'ad ibn Mua'dh, since it was him who ordered execution. He was appointed as the arbiter by Mohammed since he was regarded as a friend to the Qurayza tribe and a bridge between both the muslims and jews. Supposedly, the Qurayaza didn't complain about the choice and agreed.

Whether or not Mohammad knew what would inevitably happen, is pure speculation.

Im sure there is more, these are just some of the obvious things. Are these really admirable qualities for a man who is so devoutly worshiped that saying this things in many Islamic countries would get me killed.

These 'Islamic' countries are on the verge of deifying Mohammad's memory. He's not supposed to be revered religiously at all, but you know what happens with nearly every religion or cult...

He was the messenger because he was the most sensible man in Arabia (easy compared to his political contemporaries).

[AngryTitusPullo]

1. The execution of the one Jewish tribe happened in Medina after the battle of Khandak in which during the long sieges by the 'coalition' of pagan Meccan and few other tribes upon Medinah, this particular Jewish tribe which before had agreement with the Medinah authority to provide assistance in events of invasion etc broke their promises and help the enemies from within.

Even in modern times, the worst crime one can do to his/her own country is being a traitor. In war period, the usual punishment for a traitor is death.

However, Muhammad ordered the punishment only to those involved, while sparing women, children and elders according to Islam's rules of war. Unfortunately, the culprits happened to be the whole tribe.

2. Not 11 wives, but 14. However accepted history is that the Prophet only had 4 wives at a same time. Never more than that which is according to Islamic marriage rules. Khadijah remains the only wife Muhammad have in her life times and that marriage is more personal. The rest of the marriage, as were said to follows the Syariah of Islam where widows (and orphans) must be protected. In the age where no women works and have their own source of income that is a highly good deeds.

To let a widow life alone tending their children in a sin to the whole of community. It will and probably leads to decadence as the only profession applicable to women at those time were the oldest profession in the world. In Islam, prevention is better than cure.

3. The attack on caravans which led to the first battle (Badar) is made for political reason. It is accepted Arab tribes practises. However, do note that the political order were given as a counter-offence, in form of defence due to constant harrasment by Pagan Meccan on to caravans which intend to go to Syria or any other trading stopt in the middle east that time. It's not pre-emptive strike or anything, but in accordance of self defence.

4. Assasination - political desicions. Those trageted weren't choosen randomly. I'm sure before the order were given many peaceful course has been attempted, maybe through persuasion etc. The assasination might be the last resort to prevent further damages to the whole community.

5. The conquering Mecca stuff with 10,000 soldiers didn't actually like the liberation of Iraq or whatever. Muhammad and his followers entered Mecca according to the treaty of Hudaibiyah a year before to give permissions to enter Mecca by the Meccan authority to perform the Haj (pilgrimage).

The muslim 'army' didn't bring any war gear at all, except the swords in their scabbard , which is part of normal attire or culture, much like cowboys with pistols etc. The Meccan didn't expect that the muslim community will be that large and that's why they're are afraid. They are afraid of retribution for past wrong doings or anything even though that was not the intention of the Medinans and the Muslims when they entered Mecca.

Many sources we can find regarding the conquering of Mecca so I do not need to elaborate more.

It's true that there can be no comparison between Jesus and Muhammad. Jesus were a spiritual leader. A great one definately, send by God to his tribe which hapeened to be the Israelis (Jews). Much as Muhammad's action and deeds were not applicable to Jesus as he is not a political leader. In fact, according to bible itself, he said to follow the rules (law/syariah) at that time which is the Roman law. Something about the line,"For Caesar what is Ceasar's, and to God what is God's " ? Jesus's techings are more theological side, the Tauhid as the previous teachings of earlier prophets has been distorted and changed by the lost sheep of Israel.

While Muhammad, as the final prophet was a spiritual and a political leader. He's a son, a father, a friend, a companion, an imam, a general, a judge, husband and the head of state to name a few. He's not perfect as perfection is only God's privilage. However, do find me a better man if you please.

Peace. :original:

[Ummon]

Ok, I am not argueing religion here, simply the character of Muhammed. Lets look into the facts here:

1)

Being God's greatest messenger, I find it amusing he woul stoop so low as to raid a caravan. He commited other military acts, but I find this to be the lowest point of his military career.

2)He had a total of 11 wifes, which to me not only shows he viewed women nothing more than sex objects, but also he broke his own rule(4).

3) Mohammed ordered many assassinations
Ka’b bin Ashraf
Abu Rafi’
Abu Sufyan
al-Aswad
Khalid b. Sufyan

Clearly, not killing anyone doesn't apply to Muhammed either.

4)Execution of 600 Jews


Simply exterminating his enemies, nice...


Im sure there is more, these are just some of the obvious things. Are these really admirable qualities for a man who is so devoutly worshiped that saying this things in many Islamic countries would get me killed.

*note: I posted facts and my opinions on them. Can everyone please remain civil about this sensitive issue?

You are completely correct. You see how those who object to the triple nature of God, are asking you to judge Mohammed the religious figure and Mohammed the politician separately.

Down with nonsense!

[AngryTitusPullo]

You are completely correct. You see how those who object to the triple nature of God, are asking you to judge Mohammed the religious figure and Mohammed the politician separately.

Down with nonsense!

The concept of seperation between church and state is not applicable to Islam. Islam is not just for the afterlife but for this world also.

There's nothing nonsence about that. The concept of sunnah (prophet's way) according to Islam encompass everything. Politically or spiritually. Either in oneown self or in community. Among friends and even enemies. So on and so on....