Respect the respectable...

[Ummon]

Respect the respectable

By John V. Fleming
Princetonian Columnist

Earlier this month, following widespread reporting of crowds howling in the street as embassies burned and corpses littered the ground, two guest columnists published an essay here complaining of a media-perpetrated anti-Muslim "stereotype" of unreason and violence. "Islam is a religion with a long tradition of tolerance and coexistence with other religions," they concluded, "and the Muslim community asks only for basic tolerance and respect."

That we should tolerate the tolerable and respect the respectable seems an unexceptionable if modest aspiration of civil society. The Myth of Islamic Tolerance itself, however, is unlikely long to survive the perusal of a recent book of that title (Prometheus, 2005, 593 pages) or, for that matter, the wider familiarity with the Koran and Hadith among non-Muslims. These columnists complain, with regard to the Danish cartoons, of "the double standard by which slurs against Islam are permitted in the West while attacks on other faiths are not."

That is one of the more fantastic things I have ever read in a newspaper, not excluding even my own columns. The Danish cartoons appeared in a provincial newspaper published in a language spoken by a world population well under half that of Cairo. In the meantime in English (1.9 billion speakers), appears a record-selling book called "The Da Vinci Code." Its thesis is that Jesus Christ got it on with Mary Magdalene and that institutional Christianity, particularly the Roman Catholic Church, will do whatever is necessary to cover up the truth threatening to expose centuries of knowing fraud. There were no howling mobs, burning churches or art historians dead in the street, only fabulous sales spurred by aggressive publicity and a big movie on the way. I suppose that does qualify as a double standard.

As for the standard of "basic tolerance and respect," we might consider the plight of Abdul Rahman, the most celebrated Afghan Christian and perhaps the only living one. His problem is not coexistence, just simple existence. As I write, he is in prison awaiting a capital trial for the crime of converting from Islam to Christianity. And yes, that is a capital crime, so interpreted from the lips of the Prophet himself in several scriptural passages. It is enshrined in the Shari'a and in the schizophrenic Afghan Constitution, one face of which is Shari'a Light. It is not an aberration or a "tribal" anomaly. We witness the operation of the "democratic constitution" of a land liberated from tyranny by American blood and treasure. This is not American Islam but neither is it a "stereotype" or a malignant invention of Edward Said's orientalists. It is absolutely mainstream Islam, and it accurately reflects the nature of Islam's "long tradition of tolerance" as it exists in history wherever Islam has wielded power over non-Muslims and as we can expect it to exist anywhere the Shari'a may be installed in the future. Only a parody of political correctness could have the brass to demand my tolerance for an intolerance so obscurantist or my respect for a disrespect so lethal.

(...)

Rest here: http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/arc...on/14924.shtml

[GambleFish]

Great find. I agree with all of it!

[RusskiSoldat]

Correction, the Muslims were tolerant.
Times change.
Just as the western Europenas were at one point unwashed barbarians whom the civilized muslim world looked upon as degenerates, we should do the same.
Times change, cultural positions change.

[Bayzent]

Correction, the Muslims were tolerant.
Times change.
Just as the western Europenas were at one point unwashed barbarians whom the civilized muslim world looked upon as degenerates, we should do the same.
Times change, cultural positions change.

totally agree but not ALL the MUSLISM, only the fanatical muslim countries. I have two muslim friends from Melilla who don't give the importance to the cartoons that many other muslims do.

[Darth Wong]

So by generalizing about Islam, the author presumes that a random poll of Muslims living in the UK or Canada would show that they all support the death sentence for Abdul Rahman, correct? What if such a poll did not produce the expected result? Would the author be willing to retract the claim that the problem lies with Islam itself rather than a backward, savage part of the world that would probably be just as savage if it were Christian?

[Aristophanes]

So by generalizing about Islam, the author presumes that a random poll of Muslims living in the UK or Canada would show that they all support the death sentence for Abdul Rahman, correct? What if such a poll did not produce the expected result? Would the author be willing to retract the claim that the problem lies with Islam itself rather than a backward, savage part of the world that would probably be just as savage if it were Christian?

Mild curiosity spurs me to ask you why, in particular, that part of the world, where Muslims reside in majority, is so 'backward', as you so eloquently put it? Is it mere coincidence that any major religion, other than Islam, can boast nations of superior development, human rights record, prosperity and freedom? Or is there, perhaps, absolutely no tangible link between cultural mores which uniformly militate against new ideas and freedom, and societal backwardness?

So, what is your explanation for 'backward and savage parts of the world'?

[crazyj]

So by generalizing about Islam, the author presumes that a random poll of Muslims living in the UK or Canada would show that they all support the death sentence for Abdul Rahman, correct? What if such a poll did not produce the expected result? Would the author be willing to retract the claim that the problem lies with Islam itself rather than a backward, savage part of the world that would probably be just as savage if it were Christian?

Polls have shown 40% of Muslims in America support suicide bombing, and 60% in England.

And maybe that part of the world is backward and savage precisely because of Islam's presence?

And that poll you mentioned doesn't have to be supported by all Muslims in the UK or Canada. Those not in favor of the death penalty would by definition not be considered "true" Muslims.

And you honestly think this is not true of Muslims? There are a billion or so Muslims in the world and you figure more than 500 million of them are violent extremists rather than people just eking out a living day to day?

If so, why isn't there far, far more sectarian violence in the world than we presently see?

Because we don't see it all. We see slivers.

Check out what extremists are doing in Africa, Europe, North and South America, the Middle East, Asia, and the Pacific Rim.

Pretty much everywhere but in Antarctica you'll find a fairly robust Islamic movement whose principles are the same as they were 1000 years ago.

Posts Merged. Please don't double post. -Honor&Glory

[Ummon]

Without figures we won't talk of majorities, or minorities. Can we deny that a big fraction of muslims are extremists, or can't we? And why? Discuss.

[Darth Wong]

Without figures we won't talk of majorities, or minorities. Can we deny that a big fraction of muslims are extremists, or can't we? And why? Discuss.

Can we deny that a big fraction of humans are extremists, or can't we? And why? Discuss.

The problem is that you have been on some sort of crusade for an undetermined length of time (longer than I've been here, in any case) to prove that Islam intrinsically leads to extremism, in a way that Christianity doesn't.

[Ummon]

Can we deny that a big fraction of humans are extremists, or can't we? And why? Discuss.

Yes. The quasi-totality of humans are are too busy with surviving to be extremists.

The problem is that you have been on some sort of crusade for an undetermined length of time (longer than I've been here, in any case) to prove that Islam intrinsically leads to extremism, in a way that Christianity doesn't.

If this is true, that makes me right.

We can't because next to none are by my house, nuff said. No discussion needed.

The only people who believe most are is bigots who should be ignored for being just as extreme and worthy of hanging.

This number of people worthy to be hanged, appears to be increasing.

[Darth Wong]

Yes. The quasi-totality of humans are are too busy with surviving to be extremists.

And you honestly think this is not true of Muslims? There are a billion or so Muslims in the world and you figure more than 500 million of them are violent extremists rather than people just eking out a living day to day?

If so, why isn't there far, far more sectarian violence in the world than we presently see?

[Ummon]

And you honestly think this is not true of Muslims?

Yes, I do. Infact, many muslims have much time to spend in violence, when this isn't true at the same level for other peoples and religions.

There are a billion or so Muslims in the world and you figure more than 500 million of them are violent extremists rather than people just eking out a living day to day?

I never said more than 50%, I said a great part. If we are to define "a great part" let's say that a great part is around 20%, or more. A generous estimate.

If so, why isn't there far, far more sectarian violence in the world than we presently see?

I think what we have now is already sufficient.

[Kanaric]

Without figures we won't talk of majorities, or minorities. Can we deny that a big fraction of muslims are extremists, or can't we? And why? Discuss.

We can't because next to none are by my house, nuff said. No discussion needed.

The only people who believe most are is bigots who should be ignored for being just as extreme and worthy of hanging.

[The Alcotroll]

the Muslim community asks only for basic tolerance and respect

Respect is a word bandied around far too often these days.

Tolerance is a right and a duty, but respect, now respect has to be earned.

[Denny Crane!]

Islamic extremists, fanatics and mobs are all lumped together and yet they are all very different things.

Consider the word extremist and what connotations we apply to the word.

Extremist : One who advocates or resorts to measures beyond the norm especially in politics.

If we are to classify people who are easily incited to riot then we must surely say France has more extremists than Saudi Arabia or a fair amount of other Islamic countries. Or do we consider an extremist a person capable of commiting violent terrorist acts, surely not the same as rioting otherwise France must be full of extremists capable of violent terrorist acts.

Instead we look at armed insurgencies and terrorist attacks, how about a figure instead of speculation an anti-islamic site quotes 4593 attacks since september 11th 2001 (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2005.htm). This is 2.84 attacks per day. The actual amount of people needed to orchestrate that level of violence is very small numbering in the tens of thousands at most.

Fanatics in Islam, we have more than a few of them. The majority of islamic people live in poorly educated areas and poor education breeds fanatical belief. Of course we have a fair amount of fanaticism in the west as well. How many Americans are fanatically patriot (more than a few judging by this sites makeup), how many of the french students are militant? How many British are fanatical about football to the point where a football stadium is not a safe place to be (I once did a kung fu demo with a choy lee fut class at the half time show between Newcastle and Leeds and I thought we weren't going to make it out alive I was getting called a gook/:wub: and various other things, I'm pure cracker). Are they truly extremists or are they just poorly educated and easily incited to riot like the indigenous population of any country. The amount of racism I encounter where I work and among people I meet suggests that racism and fanatical hatred of other populations is endemic to any population at the lower tiers of the social order ie. The Majority!

Therefore I suggest that the amount of extremists is small. There are a lot of poorly educated racist fanatical people in Islamic countries, fractionally larger than the amount in the west. Poorly educated people will riot, will hate other people and will riot with a little bit of incitement (except for Britain where the national strikes proved yesterday we would much rather have have a cup of tea ).

Peter

[nadjib]

Ummon, you can change the title of this thread to :

MUSLIMS=TERRORISTS

And I think that you are also an extremist... bye.

[Perikles]

Ummon, you can change the title of this thread to :

MUSLIMS=TERRORISTS

And I think that you are also an extremist... bye.

Or maybe not....

You can't deny that a lot of muslims have extremist views. Terrorist attacks, Palestinian elections (to an extent), Muhammad cartoon 'riots' prove this. Quite a lot of muslims in the ME also have medieval views on women, free speech and the law.
If Ummon is extremist, then I so am I, even though I don't actually see what is extremist anyway....

[Denny Crane!]

Or maybe not....

You can't deny that a lot of muslims have extremist views. Terrorist attacks, Palestinian elections (to an extent), Muhammad cartoon 'riots' prove this. Quite a lot of muslims in the ME also have medieval views on women, free speech and the law.
If Ummon is extremist, then I so am I, even though I don't actually see what is extremist anyway....

The french have a lot of extremists.

Peter

[Garbarsardar]

Ummon, you can change the title of this thread to :

MUSLIMS=TERRORISTS

And I think that you are also an extremist... bye.

nadjib, no one here cares about who we are. We are what we write. And we all have the patience to attempt refuting the arguments we disagree with, no matter how incenced we feel sometimes.
So please, stay and argue, or come back when you feel more calm. :yes

[AngryTitusPullo]

Maybe we all muslims should be extremist. No harm in that. When muslims are extremist centuries ago the whole world tremble.

Through our forefathers mistakes of not balancing spiritual and material substance of the religion, many empires fell and subsequently most muslims countries have to live in degradation over colonization and humiliation.

Let the world tremble again. We were asleep so long and let ourselves be humiliated again and again.

Awake my friends. Remember while we are living peacefully and harmony, our brothers and sisters are living under fear, of being bombed at home, killed while praying. What a shame when most of the richest countries are muslims, but what can we do ? :no