Someone stop the fraking pope!

**Gogolometro** · July 30, 2011, 04:24 PM

Ideea is simple, old and knowned by all players. But at this time I can say is just frustating if you not play HRE.
In all games I play, pope is tended to crusade Cairo, the moorish castle in Iberia. Jerusalim look like overrated in SS. Antich, Acre, Aleppo are not targeted at all. Even a muslim Constantinople is never targeted. In fact to see a turkish city been crusaded is an exceptional event. But this are just secondary things.
What piss me most is the overeaction of papacy versus HRE.
Was a conflict in history, I am agree, but to see constant, in all my games only them or most of time crusaded, is just, dunno, badd for gameplay. I not want to fight with genovese, venetians, danish or french in german lands. This is bad. I mean is one of the great minus of Medieval game, not SS in particular, i love SS.
Can be done something for a papacy focus on muslim area and not on fellow catholics?

**Ichon** · July 30, 2011, 05:58 PM

Yeah the Crusades on Catholics don't make much sense. Not sure what can be done as its hard coded. Even changing the target list seems to make small difference if you leave any European cities on the list. But if you leave only historic Crusade locations on the lists its a very small list and Catholics could still be Crusaded if they came to control those locations.

The HRE shoudn't start out crap relations with Pope. If anything all the Catholic nations should start out perfect relations and then the actions of the AI lower relations from there. If there were a way to script Catholic nations negative actions having half the normal affect with the Pope or something as well. Or some event similar to fairs that boost relations with the Pope.

**Gogolometro** · July 30, 2011, 06:22 PM

Ichon, muslim factions control ussual half of map easy. The crusaders are killed in maximum 50 turns if you not play them or close to them and help them somehow.
But is not wierd, is total mess to see HRE crusaded so heavy all time. Funny things happens, HRE with a crusade stack (speramans and knights) fight against other stack of cross banner. Is just so wierd. No need to explain myself how wierd is to see venetians at Frankfurt, Danemark controling half of Europe in 100 turns, or pope on rampage.
Is very frustrating this hardcoded thing about crusades, pope relations and crusade target.

**k/t** · July 30, 2011, 08:58 PM

It's ok if it's a very short list, as the crusades should stop in 1300.

We should make a better list of targets (adding Muslim cities to and removing HRE, French and any other European cities from the list) and then it's up to the player to manipulate the pope into calling a crusade against a certain target.

**Re_Minder** · July 31, 2011, 01:59 AM

Probably most annoying part for me was that you couldn't crusade Orthodox cities.

**Nyarla** · July 31, 2011, 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by Re_Minder

Probably most annoying part for me was that you couldn't crusade Orthodox cities.

why would the pope sanction a crusade versus fellow cristians even if they follow a different path. they are not heretics that should be burnt alive and the wrath of crist be brought down at them.
the original crusades were in order to help the ERE against the turkish threat, and jerusalem was just a means to achieve that.

**Re_Minder** · July 31, 2011, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by Nyarla

why would the pope sanction a crusade versus fellow cristians even if they follow a different path. they are not heretics that should be burnt alive and the wrath of crist be brought down at them.

Though I can't argue that crusades were meant for different purpose, this part made me laugh. Try describing a heretic from Catholic standpoint and see if it fits the description of an Orthodox. Seriously, whoever stood against the Pope were labelled as heretics. Even in game terms, there's a reason why you can farm Orthodox settlements without being scolded by the Pope.

I do believe that the fourth Crusade came pretty close to an example of a crusade against an orthodox nation.

**popovic** · July 31, 2011, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Re_Minder

I do believe that the fourth Crusade came pretty close to an example of a crusade against an orthodox nation.

No, it didn`t. The Latin Crusaders had no mandate from the Pope for taking Constantinople at all.

I`m not saying that the Pope had any special love for the Orthodox. However, a full sized Crusade against an Orthodox country never happened in history. So I see no reason why it should happen in the mod.

Also, I`d personally would like to see Crusades against excommed Catholics removed.
Gameplay wise they make no sense.

**bɑne** · July 31, 2011, 02:49 AM

One can give the AI factions a steady relationship boost with the papal_states which should theoretically keep them from being excommunicated. If you are fine with potentially no crusades on christian factions at all I can create something like that later on but it will only work on new campaigns.

**popovic** · July 31, 2011, 08:51 AM

Originally Posted by bɑne

One can give the AI factions a steady relationship boost with the papal_states which should theoretically keep them from being excommunicated. If you are fine with potentially no crusades on christian factions at all I can create something like that later on but it will only work on new campaigns.

Mate, that sounds AWESOME!

**Ichon** · July 31, 2011, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by bɑne

One can give the AI factions a steady relationship boost with the papal_states which should theoretically keep them from being excommunicated. If you are fine with potentially no crusades on christian factions at all I can create something like that later on but it will only work on new campaigns.

I would be interested in something like that though is there any way to kick it in only when AI relations with Pope fall below certain level?

**bɑne** · July 31, 2011, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by Ichon

I would be interested in something like that though is there any way to kick it in only when AI relations with Pope fall below certain level?

Interesting. What would be the benefit of such a distinction? I'd argue that the AI is to stupid to manage the diplomatic relations with the pope like a human can which is why it might be best to take it out of their hands completly. One necessary exemption is for war with the papal states. If the AI manages that they deserve to be screwed. Or not, let me know your thoughts on this. If you see any other situation where relations should not be tampered with let me know as well. Better papal relationships might also lead to increased crusade demands by the AI factions. The thing is the more complicated this gets the larger becomes the strain on the turn times.

**Ichon** · July 31, 2011, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by bɑne

Interesting. What would be the benefit of such a distinction? I'd argue that the AI is to stupid to manage the diplomatic relations with the pope like a human can which is why it might be best to take it out of their hands completly. One necessary exemption is for war with the papal states. If the AI manages that they deserve to be screwed. Or not, let me know your thoughts on this. If you see any other situation where relations should not be tampered with let me know as well. Better papal relationships might also lead to increased crusade demands by the AI factions. The thing is the more complicated this gets the larger becomes the strain on the turn times.

The goal isn't to give the Catholic factions good Papal relations but immunity to Crusade or at least very reduced occurrences of Crusades called.

I am not sure the exact function of Pope's favor compared to Papal State relations but they seem somewhat related.

That means if Catholic AI nations always have perfect or near perfect relations they get the benefit of the doubt on attacking players regions with the Pope all game long. I'd rather they can get low relations and perhaps excommunicated if disobeying a Papal order but otherwise whenever get to 2-3 favor increase to 5-6 so that a player has at least a chance of having higher relations.

As far as AI getting in to a war with Pope... I don't think it is AI''s fault most of the time. I've seen Venice backstabbed by the Pope numerous times when Venice had high relations. So it would be nice if Pope can get into a war without excommunicating a faction though I am not sure that is possible.

**bɑne** · July 31, 2011, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Ichon

The goal isn't to give the Catholic factions good Papal relations but immunity to Crusade or at least very reduced occurrences of Crusades called.

I never said that. How do you keep yourself from beeing crusaded? By keeping the crosscount high. How do you do that? By gifting and bribing the papal states and improving relations. So no - the goal isn't to give the Catholic factions good Papal relations. But to give the Catholic factions good Papal relations is a way for immunity from Crusades.

I am not sure the exact function of Pope's favor compared to Papal State relations but they seem somewhat related.

Correct.

That means if Catholic AI nations always have perfect or near perfect relations they get the benefit of the doubt on attacking players regions with the Pope all game long. I'd rather they can get low relations and perhaps excommunicated if disobeying a Papal order but otherwise whenever get to 2-3 favor increase to 5-6 so that a player has at least a chance of having higher relations.

In my experience AI factions always ignore a Papal order, otherwise the HRE wouldn't get chewed up so often. A favor as low as 2-3 is enough to drop to zero in one turn before the regain kicks in. I'd nail the reset point to 80%. To be honest I wouldn't really care about it beeing at 100%. Maybe we should just test if this even works as intended for the full immunity before scaling down?

**Humakty** · July 31, 2011, 10:17 AM

A crusade was called against the 'comté de Toulouse' in southern France, 'cause the pope wanted to get rid of an heresy (albigeois heresy). Going against the pope was enougth to get crusaded, whoever you were... And truly the sack of Constantinople can hardly pass for a mistake. Not like if what was sacked was given back, or reparations proposed.

**popovic** · July 31, 2011, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Humakty

Going against the pope was enougth to get crusaded, whoever you were...

Generally, I agree. However, never in history was there a Crusade that the Pope actually called against an Orthodox country/ruler. And I don`t think allowing Crusades against the Orthodox would very good gameplay wise.

Originally Posted by Humakty

And truly the sack of Constantinople can hardly pass for a mistake. Not like if what was sacked was given back, or reparations proposed.

I don`t think it is a mistake either. The Latins took it on their own hand. After it was all done, the greedy `ol pointy hat prolly just mumbled something along the lines of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCaRdCQCSuc

However, the Pope NEVER asked the Crusaders TO ACTUALLY ATTACK Constantinople.
They did it at their own hand.

**Humakty** · July 31, 2011, 10:38 AM

Yeah it's true no official Crusade (I mean a numbered one in history books) was called against fellow christians AFAIK, and I think Albigeois was an internal affair between the kingdom of France and the pope ( still a gruesome mass murder of christians...). It would be fun to have a way to make a crusader army derail without it loosing troops, on special occasions. ( a juicy target which could excite the greed of soldiers and noblemen alike, kind of Constantinople sack)

It's true it is very strange to see the whole christian world unite to take Hamburg... Death to heathens ? Hu ? The pope in MTW 2 really seems on crack at times.

**Humakty** · July 31, 2011, 12:45 PM

For minor heresy and other christian sects struggle, maybe a half stack of good quality rebels spawning in the appropriate region at certain date, with a high level heretic, and 25-50 % instantaneous conversion toward heretic faith would probably simulate it good enougth.