Yet Another Marian Reform Question...

[bugmg]

I'm certain after looking around and observing all of the posts by other users that the Marian Reforms are difficult to obtain, but has any user ever gotten them without cheating?

I know one method I thought would work would be to build an academy in a city like Rome or elsewhere in the rest of Italy, send all my generals there, and once they have all the traits but command and popularis, then send them out to fight until he is a 3 star general. Has this tactic worked for anyone? Because I don't know how to add_traits or figure out how to find a name, and the romeshell is a really annoying piece of work.

Thanks for any help, and GOOD LUCK TO THE EB II TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!

[Entropy Judge]

Yes, the Marian Reforms are achievable without Cheating. Difficult, but quite possible. Not to mention, the "Conquer 90 Settlements" requirement AFAIK means you don't need the Character. There may or may not be a date at which they automatically occur, as well - 107 BC, according to an (old) thread.

[Boriak]

I know one method I thought would work would be to build an academy in a city like Rome or elsewhere in the rest of Italy, send all my generals there,

I do that with ever family member that comes of age. I have the highest tier school build in Rome since forever and I send everyone there for training, even if they emerged in Iberia.

[Enyalios]

Another method is to keep on building Ceres temples for the general you want to become Popularis. If you check the game files, there's something like a 20% (or worse) chance every time it's built to make the general a Popularis. I once spent 20 years knocking down Cere's shrines and rebuilding them, and I was able to make about 3 Popularis generals out of my Patricians (my Plebs never seemed to become Consuls). Command stars is a bit of a pain, but getting two isn't that hard, and once you get the Consul trait it gives you a third one which will allow you to trigger the Marian reforms.

[torongill]

What do you mean command stars are a problem? fight with even odds or the odds against you, personally kill as many enemy soldiers as possible and you will have at least 4 stars in no time.

[Enyalios]

What do you mean command stars are a problem? fight with even odds or the odds against you, personally kill as many enemy soldiers as possible and you will have at least 4 stars in no time.

I have a lot of problems as the Romani getting more than 2 command stars. The two command traits I usually got were Gifted Leader and Great Tactician which amount to 4 command stars I think, but then a lot of the time I get traits which offset those, so on average most of my generals get 2 command stars except the FM's I use exclusively in the field. I once cheated using auto_win and made my one Popularis guy go all over Gaul conquering stuff by himself and he even got the warmonger trait, but he still only had 2 command stars at any time because he got a bunch of other bad traits. Eventually he went to the grave with 1 command star, never becoming a Consul because of it even though I made him fight. I think he got the "Wearied Fighter" trait after a while which took away a command star.

Only once was I able to get an FM with 4 command stars and he had been fighting his whole life and was given the "Leader of Men" trait (and he didn't have a lot of bad traits, nor was he a warmonger). I've never had problems with management and influence though.

[Samariten]

Building Ceres temples help but that had already been said

[Samariten]

My six star commander i dont have a problem to gain stars as the romani.

[Jive]

Well folks, it's 209 BCE and I got the Marian reforms, since the 90 settlement requirement was achieved. But somewhere there's a thread talking about how one or more Marian units are no stronger than the Polybian. Anybody have something on that?

[Entropy Judge]

Well folks, it's 209 BCE and I got the Marian reforms, since the 90 settlement requirement was achieved. But somewhere there's a thread talking about how one or more Marian units are no stronger than the Polybian. Anybody have something on that?

If you make the Attack and Defense stats of Marian and Imperial Cohorts without significantly increasing their costs, you doom the rest of the world a la Vanilla Rome. Roman units are already almost as good as most factions' Elites, and are far cheaper. As for actual stats ...
Polybian Principes : Cohors Reformata
Pilum Attack - 4 : 4
Gladius Attack - 11 : 11 (both have .13 Lethality)
Total Defense - 24 : 22 (Principes have +2 Armour)
Morale - 14 : 13
Soldiers (base) - 50 : 40
Cost - 1790 : 1185
Upkeep - 448 : 296

So statwise, yeah, they're almost identical; Principes have slightly more Defense due to more Armour, but there are more men in a Cohort. That really doesn't matter. What's the big difference, then? Area of Recruitment. Principes can only be recruited in Italy. Cohors Reformata are available in Iberia, Gaul, much of Britain, North Africa, the Balkans, Asia Minor, and a good chunk of the Middle East. Yeah, they're more expensive and they've got slightly less Defense; so what? They're still almost as good as other factions' Elites, and they're now available in half the map. You also have the Cohors Evocata, an Italy-only unit that's got better Attack and Morale stats, 12 Armour and 9 Skill, and 40 soldiers in it; and the Antesignani, who have rockin' stats and are elite Spearmen (30 soldiers), and are also available in half the map.

[Jive]

Thanks EJ. So I've got Marian infantry recruitment in Italy, and Town Watches in various places (Spain, Asia Minor, etc.). They were simply available immediately, while the city build menus in Italy suggest I repair the old Polybian barracks (would that be worthwhile, to retrain experienced units? ). So how can I get the reformed cohort, re-enlisted veterans, and light infantry outside Italy? And what about horsies? There's no cavalry available, even in Italy. Not that it's a problem; I can always recruit Greek, Illyrian, Arab, or other types elsewhere. Still, it would be nice to have Marian cavalry to go along with their ground-pounding citizen mates.

One other thing: When do those Uber-Barbs north of Italy chill out a bit? Early in the game I had a go, but a superstack (silver and gold chevrons, crazy naked swordsmen, and such) of Eleuthoroi hunted me down when I laid siege to an Alpine town. They wiped out my stack, and even though I killed several hundred they had so many healers they were practically undamaged. The last time I looked they were still there, along with some other roaming psychopathic stacks. Yikes! There be monsters...

Anyway thanks again for your earlier reply, and have a great day. PS: Doncha think this mod is the greatest? Wow. All power and glory to the developers, troubleshooters, and anyone else who made it available and keeps it ticking.

[Entropy Judge]

Thanks EJ. So I've got Marian infantry recruitment in Italy, and Town Watches in various places (Spain, Asia Minor, etc.). They were simply available immediately, while the city build menus in Italy suggest I repair the old Polybian barracks (would that be worthwhile, to retrain experienced units? ). So how can I get the reformed cohort, re-enlisted veterans, and light infantry outside Italy? And what about horsies? There's no cavalry available, even in Italy. Not that it's a problem; I can always recruit Greek, Illyrian, Arab, or other types elsewhere. Still, it would be nice to have Marian cavalry to go along with their ground-pounding citizen mates.

As I've never actually gotten to the Marian Reforms, I can't help too much. RE: Polybian Barracks: You can keep them, I suppose, but I don't think they'd be much use. They aren't significantly better than Marian Legions, after all.

For the Marian units, you are going to need to build Factional Barracks; if you have Type II and III Governments, you should be able to build it high enough for Legionairies (Level 3, if I understood the Recruitment Viewer). Marian Rome also has its own (different) cavalry, which is Auxilia: Gallic, Germanic, Iberian, and Thracian Cavalries (which should require Level 4 Factional MICs). Note that all of them are Javelin Cavalry, although the Gallic version has a nice Lance for charging (Germans get a Spear which doesn't charge as well, Hispanics get an AP Sword, Thracians get a .13 Lethality Sword).

One other thing: When do those Uber-Barbs north of Italy chill out a bit?

Never, AFAIK If you take the city they're guarding they won't respawn; the best way I've found (as the Sweboz, anyway) is to use two armies - the first lures the army away (and probably dies horribly), the second hits the city. Since they tend to have low Movement, you can usually get a turn to get your Equipment built.

Early in the game I had a go, but a superstack (silver and gold chevrons, crazy naked swordsmen, and such) of Eleuthoroi hunted me down when I laid siege to an Alpine town. They wiped out my stack, and even though I killed several hundred they had so many healers they were practically undamaged.

If you insist on killing them, aside from taking the town they guard, you need to do two things: Kill off the General commanding (because if you kill enough of them, IIRC the game stops spawning them in); and bring lots of Good Archers/Skirmishers. Their XP Bonuses affect their Attack and their Skill, so missile Attacks have a better chance of getting through. Stand on the defensive, preferably up a hill, and use cavalry to chip away at their flanks.

Or Auto-Win. *shrug* They're there to stall ahistorical AI expansion, not necessarily to stop humans.

Doncha think this mod is the greatest? Wow. All power and glory to the developers, troubleshooters, and anyone else who made it available and keeps it ticking.

It is.

[Giurza]

Hey, EJ, I didn't want to create a new thread on a trivial question, so I'll just post it here (sorry for hijacking the thread)
it's about the Eastern and Western Romani Auxilia. they had not only hasta, but also gladius, why is it not implemented? another RTW engine restriction or something else entirely? is it possible for me to edit EDU and give em the gladius? or the animation is missing?

[Jive]

For the Marian units, you are going to need to build Factional Barracks; if you have Type II and III Governments, you should be able to build it high enough for Legionairies (Level 3, if I understood the Recruitment Viewer). Marian Rome also has its own (different) cavalry, which is Auxilia: Gallic, Germanic, Iberian, and Thracian Cavalries (which should require Level 4 Factional MICs). Note that all of them are Javelin Cavalry, although the Gallic version has a nice Lance for charging (Germans get a Spear which doesn't charge as well, Hispanics get an AP Sword, Thracians get a .13 Lethality Sword)

Thanks again EJ. Btw I didn't build special factional barracks for the Marian infantry units; they just appeared suddenly on the recruitment menu. I'll try building the "special weapons" facilities to see if that leads to cavalry.

Regarding expense, there's a big difference, with maybe a 50% increase in cost and upkeep for post-Marian units. And the Elite Legionary Light Infantry is practically outtasight--3002 (in Ariminum; it's 3160 in Patavium) and 790 respectively (upkeep seems the same wherever they're recruited). It's fast with excellent morale, but with only 61 guys in it the price seems excessive, to put it mildly. But if I can eventually recruit them in Egypt it might be worth it! At any rate I've got plenty of Polybian stacks left over from my barnstorming days to tie up loose ends. And if all else fails, I can try "repairing" the old Polybian MIC's.

Cheerio. Hope you're having a good time with your campaign.

[Stingray970]

Giurza
I don't know anything about the Eastern and Western auxilia in the game, but I'm going to assume they have pila.

Units in RTW can only have 2 weapons. A primary (pilum, lance, bow, etc.) and a secondary (sword, dagger, spear, etc.).
It makes more sense to keep pila and only have one weapon in terms of in-game playability. Having 2 normal weapons is a bit redundant from a gameplay point of view.

[Entropy Judge]

Hey, EJ, I didn't want to create a new thread on a trivial question, so I'll just post it here (sorry for hijacking the thread)
it's about the Eastern and Western Romani Auxilia. they had not only hasta, but also gladius, why is it not implemented? another RTW engine restriction or something else entirely? is it possible for me to edit EDU and give em the gladius? or the animation is missing?

According to the online unit list, the Eastern Auxilia have both, and the Western ones only have the spear. I have absolutely no skill or knowledge regarding modelling and such, but I would assume they have the same skeleton et al, so it should be a matter of simply adding the Gladius lines to the Western Auxilia's Secondary Weapon.

Regarding expense, there's a big difference, with maybe a 50% increase in cost and upkeep for post-Marian units.

And it's still far and away better than anyone else's cost-efficiency rating. Furthermore, when playing as Polybian Rome, just taking Italy, the Illyrian Coast, and Greece gave me enough money to maintain half a dozen standing armies and still make enormous gains. Money simply isn't an issue with Rome.

And the Elite Legionary Light Infantry is practically outtasight--3002 (in Ariminum; it's 3160 in Patavium) and 790 respectively (upkeep seems the same wherever they're recruited).

I am nearly certain that the Recruitment cost is being affected by a Governor's Trait or Ancillary - 3002 is 95% of 3160, which means that Ariminum is getting a 5% discount from somewhere, and AFAIK that's only available from Retinue or a Trait.

It's fast with excellent morale, but with only 61 guys in it the price seems excessive, to put it mildly. But if I can eventually recruit them in Egypt it might be worth it!

Consider this then - the Germanic Elite Naked Fanatic unit has the same number of men, a more powerful (but lower-ranged) Missile Attack, +1 Melee (and 12 Charge), 1 Armour / 2 Shield / 15 Skill, 18 Morale ... and costs 2513/628. So a unit that is nearly as good (if significantly more vunerable to missiles, and less survivable in general) costs nearly as much as the Antesignani, and belongs to a faction that has nowhere near the economic strength to field them in anywhere near the numbers that Antesignani can be recruited in. Antesignani are are Spartan-quality units, and are at Spartan price. They aren't *supposed* to be spammed, but a Roman economy is quite capable of doing it.

[Jive]

Your points are well taken EJ. In a babtism of fire, I landed a stack of mostly post-Marian infantry (with two cavalry and a general) on Rhodus. There was already a stack of unhoned (no blacksmith on duty) Greek levy hoplites and skirmishers, plus a couple of garrison units for the Hellenoids. What I didn't know was, there were THREE additional stacks--another Hellenic and two Eleuthoroi. My force of 1,500 was whittled down, but after four battles--all against superior numerical odds on hard difficulty--it was still standing. I'd never beaten off three successive attacks in one AI turn, let alone four, so I guess this is more a testimony to the superiority of post-Marian units than my mediocre tactical ability. Not bad!

Thanks as always, and happy gaming.

[zamolxe]

Hi guys,

I am in 178 BC, I have 90 regions/settlements and no Marian reform. The second rule for the Marian reform states "Conquer 90 settlements". Does it mean I have to conquer 90 on top of the initial 3 or whatever I had when I started the game? So a total of 93 regions/settlements?

[Giurza]

Giurza
I don't know anything about the Eastern and Western auxilia in the game, but I'm going to assume they have pila.

wrong assumption, as I mentioned - they have hasta, not pila thus sword would be OK as secondary to both eastern and western auxilia

EJ, thanx for your answer! I didn't notice the difference between the eastern and western, but it seems I made a bad assumption too! I'll have to try to edit EDU and see what comes out...
maybe Xsamatan could enlighten us as to why the difference? any historical background to that?

[Rhomphaiaphoros]

it's about the Eastern and Western Romani Auxilia. they had not only hasta, but also gladius, why is it not implemented? another RTW engine restriction or something else entirely? is it possible for me to edit EDU and give em the gladius? or the animation is missing?

There are actually 3 separate things connected with unit weapons:

- The stat_sec line(s) in the EDU
- The skeleton line in DMB (descr_model_battle)
- The actual, visible weapon attached to the model

Now, editing the EDU part alone will most probably result in a crash. But modifying both EDU and DMB will get you a weapon that works fine in-game. However, if there is no "visual" weapon already attached to the model, then your soldiers seem to attack with their bare hands, even though their attacks deal the damage of the weapon you statted for them (i.e. there will be a visual glitch, but not a game-mechanical one). What I don't know is whether the Western Auxilia model already has an unused sword attached to it; if it does have that, then of course there will be no visual glitch .

In case you are not familiar with the DMB, don't worry, the modification you need to do there is extremely simple in this case. You only need to copy the skeleton entry line from the Eastern Auxilia model, and replace the Western Auxilia model's skeleton entry line with it (after that, there should be entries for two weapons instead of only one). For reference, the line you are looking for looks like this:

skeleton            fs_spearman, fs_swordsman_barb_slash

As you can see, there are two "fs_entries" there, which represent the different skeletons for the unit's two weapons. The Western Auxilia model has in its normal state only one fs_entry, and it is going to need that other too if you add an extra weapon for it in the EDU.

So, after this DMB modding, you should have a working secondary weapon game-mechanics-wise. But if the soldiers are missing the visual part (the actual swords in their hands) while using their secondary weapons, then you'd need to add those to the soldier model itself. And as that would be a venture into modelling territory, it brings an end to my usefulness in this matter, sadly .

- Rhomphaiaphoros