Jesus is not God?

[nadjib]

Without a doubt, you have often heard the claim that Jesus is God, the second person in the "Holy Trinity". However, the very Bible which is used as a basis for knowledge about Jesus and as the basis for doctrine within Christianity clearly belies this claim. We urge you to consult your own Bible and verify that the following conclusions are not drawn out of context:

1. God Is All Knowing.....But Jesus Was Not

When speaking of the Day of Judgement, Jesus clearly gave evidence of a limitation on his knowledge when he said, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in Heaven, neither the son, but the Father." (Mark 13:32 and Matt. 24:36) But God knows all. His knowledge is without any limitations. That Jesus, of his own admission, did not know when the Day of Judgement would be, is clear proof that Jesus is not all-knowing, and that Jesus is therefore not God.

2. God Is All-Powerful.....But Jesus Was Not

While Jesus performed many miracles, he himself admitted that the power he had was not his own but was derived from God when he said, "Verily, verily I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do..." (John 5:19). Again he said, "I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear I judge: and my judgement is just; because I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." (John 5:30) But God is not only All-Powerful, He is also the source of all power and authority. That Jesus, of his own admission, could do nothing on his own is clear proof that Jesus is not all-powerful, and that therefore Jesus is not God.

3. God Does Not Have A God.....But Jesus Did Have A God

God is the ultimate judge and refuge for all, and He does not call upon nor pray to any others. But Jesus acknowledged that there was One whom he worshipped and to Whom he prayed when he said, "I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." (John 20:17). He is also reported to have cried out while on the cross, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" (Matt. 27:46). If Jesus were God, then couldn't this be read, "Myself, myself, why hast thou forsaken me?". Would that not be pure nonsense? When Jesus prayed the Lord's Prayer (Luke 11:2-4), was he praying to himself? When in the garden of Gethsemane he prayed, "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless, not as I will but as thou wilt." (Matt. 26:36). Was Jesus praying to himself? That Jesus, of his own admission and by his own actions, acknowledged, worshipped, and prayed to another being as God is clear proof that Jesus himself is not God.

According to the Bible, God is an invisible spirit....

4. But Jesus Was Flesh And Blood

While thousands saw Jesus and heard his voice, Jesus himself said that this could not be done with God when he said: "No man hath seen God at any time." (John 1:18). "Ye have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) He also said in John 4:24: "God is a spirit and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth." That Jesus would say that no one had seen or heard God at any time, while his followers both saw and heard him, is clear proof that Jesus was not God.

NO ONE IS GREATER THAN GOD AND NO ONE CAN DIRECT HIM...
BUT JESUS ACKNOWLEDGED
SOMEONE GREATER THAN HIMSELF WHOSE...
5. Will Was Distinct From His Own

Perhaps the clearest indication we have that Jesus and God are not equal, and therefore not one and the same, comes again from the mouth of Jesus himself who said in John 14:28: "My Father is greater than I." When someone referred to him as a good master in Luke 18:19, Jesus responded: "Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is God..." Furthermore, Jesus drew clear distinctions between himself and God when he said, "I proceeded forth and came from God, neither came I of myself but He sent me." (John 8:42) Jesus gave clear evidence of his subordination to God, rather than his equality with God, when he said in Luke 22:42, "not my will but Thine be done" and in John 5:30, "I seek not mine own will but the will of the Father which has sent me." That Jesus would admit that he did not come into the world on his own initiative but was directed to do so, that he would acknowledge another being as greater than himself, and that he would negate his own will in deference to affirming the will of another, give clear proof that Jesus is not the Supreme One and therefore Jesus is not God.

Conclusion
The Church recognises the Bible as the primary source of knowledge about God and Jesus. But since the Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the Supreme Being and the Supreme Being is not Jesus, upon what basis have you come to believe otherwise?

The belief that the Supreme Being is a Trinity is false and completely inconsistent with the words of Jesus as presented in the Bible. God is one, not three. He is a perfect unity.

If you are interested in the truth about God and your relationship to Him, we invite you to investigate the religion of Islam.

What Is The Word Of God About Jesus:


A. Regarding The Sonship Of Jesus:
“Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth about which they (vainly) dispute. It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter He only says to it "Be" and it is.”
Chapter 19, Verses 34-35

“They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At if the skies are ready to burst the earth to split asunder and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin. That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant.”
Chapter 19, Verses 88-93

“This similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam: He created him from dust then said to him: "Be" and he was.”
Chapter 3, Verse 59

“O people of the Book! commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) an Apostle of Allah and His Word which He bestowed on Mary and a Spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Apostles. Say not "Trinity": desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is One Allah: glory be to him: (for Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.”
Chapter 4, Verse 171

B. Regarding Jesus Being God:
“And behold! Allah will say "O Jesus the son of Mary! didst thou say unto men `worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah"? He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing Thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart though I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden. "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say to wit `Worship Allah my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up thou wast the Watcher over them and Thou art a Witness to all things.” Chapter 5, Verses 116-117

C. Regarding Crucifixion Of Jesus

“That they rejected faith: that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge. That they said (in boast) "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary the Apostle of Allah"; but they killed him not nor crucified him but so it was made to appear to them and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no (certain) knowledge but only conjecture to follow for of a surety they killed him not. Nay Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power Wise. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment He will be a witness against them.”
Chapter 4, Verses 156-159

All Quranic quotations have been taken from the Abdullah Yusuf Ali translation of “The Meaning of the Holy Qur’an”, published by Amana Corporation, Brentwood, Maryland, USA, 1993

All Biblical quotations have been taken from The Holy Bible (Authorised King James Version), Riverside Book & Bible House, Iowa Falls, IA50126, published by World Bible Publishers, Inc.

So what do you think about this

ps: this is a debate, so please respect the oppinions of other and don't flamme.

[Last Roman]

according to Jewish and Muslim beliefs, that is true. According to Christian beliefs he is. I am a Christian, therefore I believe that he is the son of God, but he is/was also human.

[removeduser_426582376423734]

nadjib, you may want to get someone to change the title of this thread, because it implies that Jesus' mortality (unholiness) is definite, which may offend some people.

And, to the question, one must believe in the Trinity.

[LegionnaireX]

It is clear the author of that article is ill-informed.Yes, Jesus was not all-powerful ot all knowing but the reason why was because he not meant to have those abilities, he was meant to be human. The point of Jesus' presence on earth was to live life as flesh and blood so that God could reach out to His own creation by becoming a part of it and making the ultimate sacrifice. Humans simply cannot be all-powerful and all-knowing, that his why Jesus was not when he was on earth.

[nadjib]

That entire article is an interesting argument. Yes, Jesus was not all-powerful ot all knowing but the reason why was because he not meant to have those abilities, he was meant to be human. The point of Jesus' presence on earth was to live life as flesh and blood so that God could reach out to His own creation by becoming a part of it and making the ultimate sacrifice. Humans simply cannot be all-powerful and all-knowing, that his why Jesus was not when he was on earth.

Please answer to these questions, I am glad that you find it interesting:

1/If God (or the father or whatever you call) had wanted to save us, couldn’t He have done that without sacrificing Jesus?

2/In the Bible, sometimes Jesus is human, sometimes is God, sometimes God is not Jesus, so it's very confusing. Please enlight us.

3/If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?

4/If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn’t this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?

5/If Jesus was God, why did he tell the man who called him "good master" not to call him "good" because accordingly, there is none good but his God in Heaven alone?

6/Wasn’t the word "god" or "TONTHEOS" also used to refer to others as well as in II Corinthians 4:4 "(and the Devil is) the god of this world" and in Exodus 7:1 "See , I have made thee (Moses ) a god to Pharaoh"?

7/If it was agreeable with God’s Majesty to have sons, He could have created a million sons the like of Jesus. So what is the big clear deal about this only son?

8/Why does the Bible say that Jesus wanted to die on the cross, when the one on the cross was shouting "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" according to Matthew 27:45 and Mark 15:33?

9/God is Just, and justice requires that nobody should be punished for the sins of others, nor should some people be saved by punishing other people. Doesn’t the claim that God sacrificed Jesus to save us because He was Just, contradict the definition of justice?

And I have many and many other questions... these ones suffice.

* Spartacus : Hi brother. I don't find the title offensing, cause I have a proof of what I'm saying. But I will change it if you want cause I respect you. So how to do this?

- I've already done this and turned it into a question. Much easier to debate! - imb39

[removeduser_426582376423734]

1/If God (or the father or whatever you call) had wanted to save us, couldn’t He have done that without sacrificing Jesus?
Well, the answer is in the question. God sacrificed Jesus, a part of himself, to save humanity from the sins of the past. This may explain it to you.




2/In the Bible, sometimes Jesus is human, sometimes is God, sometimes God is not Jesus, so it's very confusing. Please enlight us.

Well, Jesus was God in human form. Some believe Jesus was just a cocoon for the Holy Spirit, others believe he was God in his own flesh. The Bible, contrary to the Qu'ran, can be interpreted in various ways, for men wrote it.

3/If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?

That is true, if one believes in the Trinity. For, Jesus was on Earth and the Father was in Heaven. However, at the death of Jesus, and after the Resurrection, God became one, with humanity and Himself.

4/If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn’t this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?

I think I answered this in 3.

5/If Jesus was God, why did he tell the man who called him "good master" not to call him "good" because accordingly, there is none good but his God in Heaven alone?

He may have been referring to originial sin, that all humanity was cursed with sin until Jesus' crucifixion, and as he was a man, he was not "good". He may have been referring to the fact that God, in Heaven, is the only good and pure entity.

7/If it was agreeable with God’s Majesty to have sons, He could have created a million sons the like of Jesus. So what is the big clear deal about this only son?

Don't look at it too literally. The Son is not literally God's son, it is a part of God.

8/Why does the Bible say that Jesus wanted to die on the cross, when the one on the cross was shouting "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" according to Matthew 27:45 and Mark 15:33?

Human nature, I guess. Jesus knew he was a part of God, but as you said yourself, God is not wholly Jesus.

9/God is Just, and justice requires that nobody should be punished for the sins of others, nor should some people be saved by punishing other people. Doesn’t the claim that God sacrificed Jesus to save us because He was Just, contradict the definition of justice?

Well, in effect, he sacrificed Himself to save humanity, the ultimate sacrifice, no? The law cannot sacrifice itself, but God works in mysterious ways.

I hope I've helped.

EDIT:

Quran-2:256: There is no Compulsion in religion….
OR
Quran-9:29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the polltax (jiziya) with the hand of humility.
wat i could find quickly

These are taken out of context, therefore cannot be looked at individually. Islam can be seen as a word for monodeitic religion, Compulsion in religion can be seen as "you dont have to be religious" or "you should be religious as well as human", and many more.

[nadjib]

That is true, if one believes in the Trinity. For, Jesus was on Earth and the Father was in Heaven. However, at the death of Jesus, and after the Resurrection, God became one, with humanity and Himself.

So you say that after Jesus death, GOD is now ONE. So why continue to worship the Trinity, if GOD is now one, why don't worship him ? You pray Jesus and Mary, not GOD !!! it's very confusing. That's returns to my religion conception of Jesus, his is ONLY a man, like Adam was (and Adam has no father and no mother), a miracle from GOD.

It remembers me a fact that occurs in the life of our prophet Muhamed (pbuh) when he met a nomad. The nomad say to Muhamed (pbuh) : "How do I to become a muslim?". Muhamed said to him : "Who pray you if things become hard?" the nomad respond : "I pray my gods" ; "And how many gods have you?" ; "9 in earth and one in heaven." ; "And if things become very hard?" ; "I pray the one in Heaven". Muhamed said to him : "Pray only the one in heaven and you will become Muslim".

[LegionnaireX]

Please answer to these questions, I am glad that you find it interesting:

1/If God (or the father or whatever you call) had wanted to save us, couldn’t He have done that without sacrificing Jesus?

2/In the Bible, sometimes Jesus is human, sometimes is God, sometimes God is not Jesus, so it's very confusing. Please enlight us.

3/If God is one and three simultaneously, then none of the three could be the complete God. Granting that such was the case, then when Jesus was on earth, he wasn’t a complete God, nor was the "father in Heaven" a whole God. Doesn’t that contradict what Jesus always said about His God and our God in heaven, his Lord and our Lord ? Does that also mean that there was no complete god then, between the claimed crucifixion and the claimed resurrection?

4/If God is one and three at a time, then who was the God in heaven when Jesus was on earth? Wouldn’t this contradict his many references to a God in Heaven that sent him?

5/If Jesus was God, why did he tell the man who called him "good master" not to call him "good" because accordingly, there is none good but his God in Heaven alone?

6/Wasn’t the word "god" or "TONTHEOS" also used to refer to others as well as in II Corinthians 4:4 "(and the Devil is) the god of this world" and in Exodus 7:1 "See , I have made thee (Moses ) a god to Pharaoh"?

7/If it was agreeable with God’s Majesty to have sons, He could have created a million sons the like of Jesus. So what is the big clear deal about this only son?

8/Why does the Bible say that Jesus wanted to die on the cross, when the one on the cross was shouting "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" according to Matthew 27:45 and Mark 15:33?

9/God is Just, and justice requires that nobody should be punished for the sins of others, nor should some people be saved by punishing other people. Doesn’t the claim that God sacrificed Jesus to save us because He was Just, contradict the definition of justice?

And I have many and many other questions... these ones suffice.

* Spartacus : Hi brother. I don't find the title offensing, cause I have a proof of what I'm saying. But I will change it if you want cause I respect you. So how to do this?

- I've already done this and turned it into a question. Much easier to debate! - imb39

I think sparacus answered these questions pretty well. The problem here doesn't lie in faulty scripture/doctrine but in your ill-knowledge on the subject.

Jesus was sent by God to be a teacher to humanity. He tought and was sacrificed so that we could here the true will of God for the human race and could once again join our God in heaven. Make sense yet?

[Tostig]

Jesus - great chap when it came to trying to make the Jewish faith more compassionate, but as a diety he just doesn't cut the ice.

[Last Roman]

but as a diety he just doesn't cut the ice.

but was he really a diety seperate from God? Or part of a diety (which is what I think)

[The White Knight]

Imho God does not exist, so Jesus can't be his son. Anyway, let everybody believe what suits him best.

Edit: I also don't believe in Jesus' divine nature, I don't believe in 'divine nature' at all frankly.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

Those beliefs are probably shared by both Muslims and Jews and Christians do no believe them. Basically, if you're a Christian, you automatically imply that Mohammed was a fake prophet. Similarly, if you're a Muslim, you believe Christ was a prophet, not god's son and Jews believe he wasn't the Messiah and he wasn't god's son either. Buddhists believe that Buddha was nice and Jains believe killing insects is a bad thing. I'm personally an athiest so all this doesn't mean anything to me and I kill insects on a daily basis.

[David Deas]

The thread title claims Jesus was not the son of God.

But why does it go on to submit evidence that Jesus and God were not one in the same being instead of supporting its original claim?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but Jesus being the son of God was always a metaphor I thought. Jesus was never the literal offspring of God. Nobody thinks Jesus and God are actually one in the same person.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

The thread title claims Jesus was not the son of God.

But why does it go on to submit evidence that Jesus and God were not one in the same being instead of supporting its original claim?

(*) Maybe I'm missing something here, but Jesus being the son of God was always a metaphor I thought. And nobody thinks Jesus and God are actually one in the same individual.

Christ's divinity is part of the core concept of Christianity.
The oneness of god or a stern belief in monotheism is the core concept of Islam.

[Oldgamer]

The thread title claims Jesus was not the son of God.

But why does it go on to submit evidence that Jesus and God were not one in the same being instead of supporting its original claim?

Maybe I'm missing something here, but Jesus being the son of God was always a metaphor I thought. Jesus was never the literal offspring of God. Nobody thinks Jesus and God are actually one in the same person.

Nobody?

The oneness of substance of God, the Father, and God, the Son, are at the heart fo the Christian faith. The only people who don't seem to believe this are "heresies", such as Gnosticism and Arianism. There are slightly over 2 billion Christians in the world, today (1.2 billion of which are Catholic), and if there are more than 25 million of them that don't believe in the divinity of Christ, I would be surprised.

From the Nicene Creed:

"I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father ..."

It's a pretty clear statement made by about 2 billion Christians every week!

[Irishman]

He is the SON of God. A human representation of God. He obviously would have the limitations of God.

You need to change the thread title because the article only supports Jesus not being God. Not Jesus being God's son.

[nadjib]

Someone can answer for my questions... I'm a curious man by nature so please answer me, perhaps I'm wrong?

EDIT: The thread is about jesus not being the son of god, and not god, only a human sent by God

[Ewan]

This thread is just a muslim anti-christian thread and should either be renamed or closed down. no religion is on the surface is perfect , or example i know the koran ( if thats how u spell it) has many errors in it.

[nadjib]

This thread is just a muslim anti-christian thread and should either be renamed or closed down. no religion is on the surface is perfect , or example i know the koran ( if thats how u spell it) has many errors in it.

It's not an anti-christian thread. You know, christians and jews in islam are special. We call them the People of Book, and have the same rights as muslims.
so if you know the quran, you must know this. And about errors is Quran, go...

[Tostig]

This thread is just a muslim anti-christian thread and should either be renamed or closed down. no religion is on the surface is perfect , or example i know the koran ( if thats how u spell it) has many errors in it.

This is a thread pointing out some of the logical contradictions in Christian belief, with reference to the Bible. It isn't particually muslim (Can anything really be muslim? Wouldn't it be better to describe someone as believing in Islam )

should

If you're getting picky I'd point out that you're making an evaluative statement on the nature of this thread without any justification to back up your statement, and instead you're just demanding that your personal (and some might say arbitrary) moral code be applied to it, regardless of what others think.

9/God is Just, and justice requires that nobody should be punished for the sins of others, nor should some people be saved by punishing other people. Doesn’t the claim that God sacrificed Jesus to save us because He was Just, contradict the definition of justice?

Kant puts forward the option that divine intervention (although he doesn't specify Jesus it was pretty implied) was needed to free humanity from radical evil - evil which is chosen on purpose. Which was a pity because he'd been doing quite well until then.