Bow-weirdness with GOM, crash with GOAT

[Maegfaer]

I followed an excellent tutorial on this website on modifying existing units in the game. I am creating several new models for armour upgrades for Third Age. Everything went well with melee units, I just converted with Gom and opened in MilkShape two models, took the armour of one and the weapons of the other, merged them and converted back to Mesh, updated the text files accordingly and done.

Now I'm trying a bow unit, and with the above method this is the result:

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4310/bowweird.jpg

See the bows? They have a very weird shape, are held incorrectly and don't "animate" when used. I searched the forums for hours and can't figure it out. The "comments" of the groups are correct, for the bow primaryactive0, the sword secondaryactive0. The model "comment" is the same as the original model I used:

0.484048
0.390661
0.103769
1.71158
/



So I read that Goat is newer and superior to Gom, and tried it with that. However, trying to convert a m3ds that I also merged with Goat always results in this error (after "read ms3d second subversion number"):

unpack requires a string argument of 1

I can however merge the files with Gom, and then export the merged with Goat. Ingame the bows look alright, but the game CTD's after a few seconds in the battle scene.


I'm completely lost now, so I ask here for help. Thanks a lot in advance for your time!

[Murfmurf]

Is the bow held in the correct position when in Milkshape? I suspect the bow isn't assigned correctly to the right bone. It looks the bow is being held as a melee weapon rather than a bow, in which case the animation in the modeldb is wrong. Also, are you merging the model parts with MS or GoM/Goat?

Personally, I've never had a problem with GoM, but everyone's experiences are different!

[Maegfaer]

Well, I found that out if I take the working model, convert it to ms3d, and immediately convert it back to mesh without any editing it has the same problem. So I'm not doing anything wrong in the process it seems. Perhaps GOM breaks this particular model when converted to ms3d like you say, so I'll have to fix it manually before converting back...

Thanks for replying, +rep! I hope you stick around for a while, I'm right on top of this for the coming hours so I really appreciate the help! I don't really know how to check the bow-bone connection, but I'll try to find it.


edit: Yes, the bow looks to be held correctly in MilkShape. Still not sure where to check if the bone is correct.

edit2: I think this is it, looks fine to me:

http://img804.imageshack.us/img804/8532/boneo.jpg

[Murfmurf]

Yeah I'm at work and there's nothing to do, so I'll be about

Strange problem if it's just the convertor, might be good if someone else tried the same model and see if they got the same result, shame I'm not at home or I'd give it a try. Bone assignment is easy once you know how in MS, if you need instructions just let me know!

[Maegfaer]

I edited my previous reply, the bone looks fine to my amateur eyes, but maybe I'm missing something. I had a closer look ingame, and the bow has this shape:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Murfmurf]

You could just try reassigning it to be sure.

These instructions may be a bit wrong, as I don't have MS up infront of me, but I'll give it a shot:

• Unselect everything (ctrl + shift + A I think)
• Select just the bow groups
• Click on the last tab on the right, called Joints I think.
• Click on the left hand, click clear, then click assign.

I think that's right. The best way to test if the weapon is assigned correctly in my experience is to click the animate button in the bottom right, then tick the show skeleton box in the last tab (Joints afk again). Then click on the first tab and click select, then click the joints box rather than the vertices. Select the arm bones and the click the rotate box, and just move the arm around. If assigned correctly the bow should move.

I think it might be an animation problem though. With this bow unit, did you merge some parts with a melee unit? As if it's still under the melee units criteria in the modeldb, that'll be your problem I suspect.

[AnthoniusII]

The bow needs Banzai's skeleton and animation.
Here is a small guide for that.

In order to improve existing bowmen units with Bantzai’s bow string animation you need both GOM and GOAT programs

You have to merge every ms3d part in GOM because for some reason I haven’t understand it when I merged ms3d parts
with GOAT on already existing models those parts simply did not appear in game!

It is crucial when you are about to add a bow to your model, this must have a fully 3d string. Bows so far seam to have strings but they are not visible with Bantzai’s animations.

In my case, I took the string from a bow that allready had such bowstring.

Step 1: You download Bantzai’s animation pack from here:

[http://www.filefront.com/14542039/ro...onspack_v12.7z ]

Step 2: Complete your model in GOM.

Step 3: Inside Bantzai’s pack, you will find some examples:
Each example has some “skelemerge” files.
Follow Bantzai’s guide carefully of what animation and skeleton you will choose.

When you feel that your model is ready, (do not forget to merge a 3d string with your bow model), then COPY your model in to GOAT. I say copy because if something will go wrong you cannot modify you model in GOM or merge other parts in GOAT.

The model in GOM program will be the basis for improvements and changes.

Step 4: Go to GOAT and choose the “merge with external skeleton” button.
Then choose your model copy of your units and then the “skeleton bowbone.skelmerge” for longbow men or “skeleton shortbowbone.skelmerge” for small and composite bows!

Step 5: This is the tricky part because as the bow is curved, its vertexes must reassign progressively to the two new bows (bowstring. bone and to the bow offset one)!
Plus the bowstring vertexes too.
Step 6: Convert always your model to mesh ,with the new skeleton, with GOAT.

If the mod has already the animations, you should simply choose the right one in the modelsdb text. But remember to rename the mesh to the name you wish because GOAT adds words like : merged or converted.

PS: Do not forget the arrow. You must convert a unit that already has it with GOM and merge it with your model’s bow in GOM before you will sent your model in GOAT.

Remember that if your model does not satisfy you for some reasons return to the one you have in GOM and do your changes there and then repeat steps 4, 5 and 6.

No matter if you convert a model’s mesh to ms3d with or without GOAT the extra bones are gone and the GOM will crash if you will try to work with it a model that already has been converted by GOAT.

PS2: In order the units to be fuctional with the new skeletons and animations you will have to already make a new animation/skeleton pack for your mod
or it must have them already .

PS3: If your mod does not have the proper animations you must pack them and use the proper descr_skeleton text also.
For such a work there are some useful tutorials .

Your model has the right bow but needs to re merge with the proper skeleton.
EDIT:
Otherwhise follow this:
Select all
Hide selection
Unhide bow and select onlt the bow and not the arrow.
Assign the bow to bone_Lhand
It will fix the problem but you wont have animated bow string.

[Maegfaer]

You could just try reassigning it to be sure.

These instructions may be a bit wrong, as I don't have MS up infront of me, but I'll give it a shot:

• Unselect everything (ctrl + shift + A I think)
• Select just the bow groups
• Click on the last tab on the right, called Joints I think.
• Click on the left hand, click clear, then click assign.

Ah, that was it, the outer bow vertices weren't boned correctly! Thanks a lot! I have one minor issue left, and that is that the bow string is drawn-back by default (when the archers are not shooting). Any ideas how to fix that?

@Anthonius, the unit I am editing already has the Bantzai’s bow string I think. It's animated at least in the original model which I'm editing slightly, but broken now. I suppose I'll need to follow those steps then.

edit: Some of those steps confuse an amateur like me, like number 5? Which ones do apply in my case? I'm not making a unit from scratch, just small edits to existing units that already have animated bowstrings.

[AnthoniusII]

@Anthonius, the unit I am editing already has the Bantzai’s bow string I think. It's animated at least in the original model which I'm editing slightly, but broken now. I suppose I'll need to follow those steps then.

Read my edited post again.
You have two choices:
1: Use GOAT and merge a new skeleton (it's worth trying) to make bowstring work again.
2: Re assign the bows vertices to bone_Lhand.
Good luck!

[Murfmurf]

Yeah I think follow Anthonius's advice about the bowstring, he's usually on the ball

I don't personally know much about the strings, so he's your best bet! Good luck with your editing matey.

[AnthoniusII]

Yeah I think follow Anthonius's advice about the bowstring, he's usually on the ball

I don't personally know much about the strings, so he's your best bet! Good luck with your editing matey.

I learned the hard way... An entire night trying to know what to do!
If you go to CBUR and TGC forums you can see that animation/skeleton additions to our mods is called Gravity/Realism project.
I will try to write one step by step tutorial about that soon.
Here are some examples of mine:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A last minute advice.
Assign all secondaryactive weapons (axes,swords knives) to bone_Rhand.
Otherwhise you will have this problem.


Floating weapons!
Good luck to all!

[Maegfaer]

Yay it worked! I just merged it with that skeleton and converted it back to mesh with Goat, and then everything was fixed! Thanks a lot both of you, +rep*1000!

[AnthoniusII]

Yay it worked! I just merged it with that skeleton and converted it back to mesh with Goat, and then everything was fixed! Thanks a lot both of you, +rep*1000!

Glad to see that my humple tutorial helped some.
Enjoy your creations jentlemen!

[Murfmurf]

Tutorial yes please sir! Those animations look great

[AnthoniusII]

Tutorial yes please sir! Those animations look great

For now you can use post's 7 guide for all your archer units.

edit: Some of those steps confuse an amateur like me, like number 5? Which ones do apply in my case? I'm not making a unit from scratch, just small edits to existing units that already have animated bowstrings.

@Maegfaer
See my answer in post 9.
In your case Step 6:
Open GOAT toolset.
Select "merge with existing skeleton".
Select your model
Open the Banzai's animation pack ,go to examples and chose bowbone.skelmerge
Save the "new" model with the name you all ready has.
Convert it to mesh with GOAT.
Errase the name _converted from the mesh name (rename itwith its proper name).
Replace the old mesh with the new one.
Go to bmdb text : Find what animation entry has TATW for its archers.
Copy it and replace the vanilla animation entry.
If the animation entry is the same avoid the last step.

[G|I|Sandy]

I have a similar problem. Upon merging body parts of a melee unit with quivers/bows of ranged unit using GOM the bow is misplaced in game, while it sits perfectly in milkshape. I am pretty sure it is the same problem with the skeleton.
I tried using GOAT to fix the problem by following AnthoniusII's advices. I took the merged copy with all the parts and used "merge with existing skeleton", selected the ms3d file, then selected skeleton_bowbone.scelemerge from the animation pack file suggested above. This however gives an error: "unpack requires a string argument lenght of 4". No file is being created, nothing happens.
I also tried to "import standard skeleton" into model first, and then "merge with existing skeleton", same error. Any help would be highly appreciated.

In case if needed, the ms3d file is attached here. It is a fresh copy from merging of the parts using GOM and has not been touched by GOAT yet.

[AnthoniusII]

The problem with bows that come from already fanctional models under Banzai's animations lies on their vertices assignment.
You have two opitions.
Select the bow and assign it to bone_LHand
That way no string will be working but the bow will be in its proper place.
2nd Option:
You got the bow from a unit (in this case TATW) that already used string animation.
Go to GOM.
Use it "merge" button and merge the bowman model with the bow.
You will have to save the new "madel" with a name other than the original.
Let's supose the name of the unit is "gondor_archers_lod0" and after the merging must be: Gondor_archers_lod0.1
Assign the bow's normal maps in the textures and when you feel that everything is ready save the model again with its proper name (in our example: "gondor_archers_lod0").
Now take the model and it textures and copy it to GOAT folder.
Remember that when the model is under GOM affects the bow's vertices apear other bone assignments (DO NOT CHANGE THEM).
Under GOAT the bow's vertices assignments will become as they should be after the skeleton merging.
Go to GOAT :
Select "ms3d_merge with external skeleton.
Select you model (that is copy of the one you had in GOM).
Select skeleton_bowbone that you can find it in Banzai's animations/examples/bowstring
GOAT will create a model with the proper skeleton that...
You must load again the proper texture sheets (both).
The "new" model must be saved again as "gondor_archers_lod0".
USE ONLY GOAT to make that "final" model a mesh!
CAUTION: Rename the mesh that will be created by GOAT.
GOAT will create a mesh "gondor_archers_lod0_converted.mesh
Before you place the mesh in your data the mesh must be renamed to:
gondor_archers_lod0.mesh
I never use GOAT to merge parts as they seam to be invisible in 99% of the cases!

[Moon]

This should be alright.

[G|I|Sandy]

Following AnthoniusII's guide i managed to merge the model with the skeleton. However in game some parts were missing and some vertices weights were messed up. I then opened the merged ms3d file and used "sims fix underweighted bones" and converted it into .mesh using GOAT. It works ok now. I compared it with the model by Moon, seems to be the same.

There is a problem however, with both my and Moon's model. The units appear too bright. I checked the normal maps, they are fine. I originally suspected they became too bright, but they are of the same brightness as on the melee unit. Have you encountered anything like that before? Screenshot (comparison with other units) and .dds files (compressed in rar) are attached. I really don't want to bother you guys. If anyone had similar problem and knows how to fix please help, otherwise please dont spend your time trying to run the model in game. Anyways, its up to you.

At least the animation and bow are fixed now. Thanks to you guys, indirectly contributing to development of many modifications. Rep'ed. In the mean time i will try to fix it myself.

EDIT: the attachments are messed up but thats not the issue. Another thing i noticed is that the parts that appear bright seem to be those that were missing originally, i then used "fix underweighted vertices" to fix it. Also, the normal textures only highlight helmets, the cloth etc should not shine. I still do not understand why vert bone weights get messed up so badly. The problem lies there. The original model on melee unit does not shine. :/

EDIT EDIT: Just noticed, the merged model has 29 bones! Is it ok? I guess they come from that .skelemerge file...

[G|I|Sandy]

Need help. I was trying to fix this model again. This time the original .mesh was converted of into .ms3d in GOAT. The .ms3d file retained all of the bones. Then i added a shield using GOAT's merge function. Also added proper comments, assigned to bone torso for testing. Then converted it back to .mesh. The model appeared properly except the shield, which was bright. It is clear now it is due to GOAT merging or convering functions. Only added parts are bright.

Please help.
In hopes this will be pushed back to first lines and someone experienced in modeling will help.