Paighan-i-Sassani

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

This medium spear unit is present in every IB mod. But is there any evidence for this unit's existance? No Roman sources speak of such a unit - and it's stats are actually better than several Roman units'!!!
As of now it seems it's included merely to make the campaign harder for the ERE.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Over 30 views and no answers?

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

1 of those is mine, if that'll help

[Joar]

Gäiten would certainly have jumped on this question, but he's on vacation, so his opinion will have to wait.

[Constantius]

I really couldn't say I am not an expert on Sasanid warfare! But what I do know is they had been fighting the Romans for a long time, and I cannot for life of me think of a single reason why, they would not of at least tried to develope a heavy infrantry of their own

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

But there is no evidence that they did.

[Constantius]

As I said I am no expert on the Sassanid military, so without researching (which would be harder due to lack of understanding of Persian) I could not say there is or isn't, without purely speculating

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

The argument you provided is pretty useless, since Carthage faced Rome for a long time as well, and never copied the Roman military system. And you definitely know why - because their society was different.

I sincerely doubt conscripted serfs could actually hold the line.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

since Carthage faced Rome for a long time as well, and never copied the Roman military system.

They did actually field hastati/principes-ish soldiers before and during the 2nd Punic war under the Barcas, if that makes any difference.

[Dragases]

The argument you provided is pretty useless, since Carthage faced Rome for a long time as well, and never copied the Roman military system. And you definitely know why - because their society was different.

I sincerely doubt conscripted serfs could actually hold the line.

And your statement is pretty irrational. At the same time I've been wandering for a while what makes you so borderline biassed against the Sassanids. Xenophobia?

Anyhow: evidence about Sassanid heavy infantry during the siege of Amida.

"And day was not dawning, when mail clad soldiers underspread the entire heaven, and the dense forces moved forward, not as before in disorder, but led by the slow notes of the trumpets and with no one running forward."
(Ammianus Marcellinus, 19.7.3)

Nota bene: Ammianus - best Roman military historiographer of his day - was an eye witness for this.

[wulfgar610]

Anyhow: evidence about Sassanid heavy infantry during the siege of Amida.

You mean dismounted cavalry don't you?

[Constantius]

I am not arguing for against I said I have no evidence for or against, but that doesn't mean there isn't any! And I also said I can see no reason why they would not have attempted to develop some form of heavy infantry- not copy Romans

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

They did, they recuited the javelin-sword using infantry of northern Iran. No need to give them a factional unit.


Feudalism is not suited for professional non-mercenary infantry.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Lybians fought that way. And Lybians were mercenaries.


But sword/spear+javelin+large shield doesn't necessarily mean imitation legionary.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

Lybians fought that way. And Lybians were mercenaries.
.

It's Carthage we're talking about here, so that's not really fair
Rule nr 1. about Carthage:
Everyone's a mercenary. Even your pet dog.

On the 2nd part:
Yeah true, but I don't think the Barcas adopted it just because it sprung to them. Carthage had met Rome in Sicily and it hadn't enjoyed that meeting.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

But didn't Lybians always fight like that? Not to mention the Iberians and Celts. I'd put my money on the Iberians as the source of this fighting style in Carthaginian armies.



The point is, I don't think that unit is historically accurate.

[Bull3pr00f de Bodemloze]

But didn't Lybians always fight like that?

Not with the Lorica Hamata and Scutum-ish shield, iirc.

Not to mention the Iberians and Celts. I'd put my money on the Iberians as the source of this fighting style in Carthaginian armies.

For a large part, they, together with the Celts, are actually the source of a major part of Roman equipment as well. Just a fun fact.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

I knows that.

[julianus heraclius]

I must admit I pretend not to be an expert on all things Sassasian and as Joar stated earlier I think Gaiten is best placed to answer this when he returns. I must admit they do add some backbone to the Sassasinds infantry line. I personally included them in SAI for variety but am happy to withdraw them if I receive extreme opposition to the unit being allowed to continue in the mod. From my memory most Sassanid armies don't start with these troops, in fact I think most of their infantry are levy troops with light troops supported by some heavier troops. Of course if you are a purest you don't need to recruit them.

For IB:RO being a century earlier most of the heavy infantry for the sassanids that appear in SAI and IBFD will not be included, and what heavy infantry remains will be recruited as mercenaries.

[Pompeius Magnus]

"And day was not dawning, when mail clad soldiers underspread the entire heaven, and the dense forces moved forward, not as before in disorder, but led by the slow notes of the trumpets and with no one running forward."
(Ammianus Marcellinus, 19.7.3)

however, this doesn`t proof that Ammianus is speaking about Sasanian heavy infantry or heavy infantry in sasanian service or even dismounted cavalry.

Furthermore it would be nice to keep a little bit the countenance in this discussion. The reproach that somebody is Xenophobia is actually not helpful to find the answer on a fair question.

In my opinion most people have a very tendential positive view about sasanian core infantry which is partically based on books which can be referred to what we call in germany "Populär-Historik".

One of the biggest references on that item is Geo Widengren and his study Iran, der große Gegner Roms: Königsgewalt, Feudalismus, Militärwesen. I use the studies which were published by Hildegard Temporini.
Starting on page 280 he explains in one of the deepest researches about this question that the Sasanians used indeed many infantry compared to the Parthians (also the sub-divisions of "Thousands" are evidenced). The smallest tactical unit was obviously the "Dekade" - units 50 strong. (Apokalypse Baham Yast III 29 and 42) probably called drafs.

We know that the sasanians had a system of a closer Comitatus or retinue (hamhirz) - it is however absolutely not clear to me if we speak about infantry or cavalry. Shah Hormizd has written an angry letter to Bahram Coben and sent this letter to the camp together with hamaharzan (Comitatus) and pustipanan (bodyguards).
Sebeos ed.Tiflis 1912 page 48
The bodyguards were for sure cavalry - but what about the first one. Perhaps I can check some armenian sources which give some closer information about it. The term was even known to the Armenians (esp. within the ranks of the naxarar).

Unfortunately I was not able to find detailed sources about the internal social structure of Sasanian units - except with the starting of the Dehkan-system - here we have great sources due to al Tabari.
The Parthians have left more information about their internal system (liberi and servi; nobles and un-free or azatan and bandakan) and we can guess that this was taken at the beginning of the sasanian rule into their own "new" army.

The only information I get is that the infantry became more and more important during the last third of sasanian rule. Arthur Christensen gives detailes in his book (L`Iran; just available in frensh) that the core-infantry (the heavy one) was taken from Albania, Gilan, Dailam and Hyrkania. And some of those contingents always were an element of uncertainty - and were just auxilaries and mercenaries like Chionites or Kushans - independently if some of those provinces belonged to the kingdom since Sapur I.
see Christensen page 207, 208 and 209.

Another intersting note
The last field battle - fought by the sasanian kingdom - provided probably 50.000 sasanian soldiers.
Geo Widengreen, Iran and Islam chapter II.
The governement however was obviously not able anymore to deploy heavy infantry contingents (respectively auxillaries and mercenaries). But this time we can read that the empire deployed regular native troops from Tabaristan and Gurgan. It is described that 5-7 soldiers (obviously infantry) were enchained to reduce the danger of flights. If this was really the case is difficult to say.
But with some certainty we can speculate that the regular sasanian troops were at least not "scary".

Cavalry had just a minority role during this battle. But this was perhaps a result due to the countless fought battles against the Romans and against the Muslims in 632 and on. Therefore the battle cannot be taken pars pro toto for all other battles.