Fog of War

[old order]

I just wanted an opinion because a lot of my friends in real life have varying stances on this. Do you think that turning off the fog of war cheating. I personally dont see a problem, to me it just seems to unnecessarily hinder your view. What do you think?

[2Shy]

toggle_fow - that is the cheat to remove the fog .

[Jianadaren]

Well it gives you an advantage that you otherwise wouldn't have: seeing outside your borders. If you really want that information you can pay for it by using spies and acquiring map information. There is a counter-argument which says that it doesn't give you an advantage because the AI can see you too. I don't buy that because 1) I don't think it's true, and 2) even if it were, there is no way that the AI can make better use of the information than you can, seeing as the AI isn't as clever as humans are.

So I conclude that it gives you an advantage in the same way that playing on Easy gives you an advantage. It's not necessarily cheating, but it is playing at an easier difficulty and not as much of a challenge.

[MeMongo]

Cheating! in my opinion

You see every army, agent, and also who owns every settlement right?, you should have to work to find all this info out, thats part of the fun!

Never used it, never will.

[Double A]

It's only a cheat if the AI has it off. It doesn't. Not that it's a bad cheat, sometimes it's just nice to be able to toggle_fow so your agent doesn't get caught by 10 ing settlements when going to Moscow from Venice, or your army doesn't run into that enemy army instead of going around it (considering they're in the middle of a damn field). You could do both of those on your own, but it would involve slowing down your unit's movement speed to the default crawl.

However, it's off for the AI in ETW and NTW, so therefore, if you actually could use the ing console, it wouldn't be a cheat.

Cheating! in my opinion

You see every army, agent, and also who owns every settlement right?, you should have to work to find all this info out, thats part of the fun!

Never used it, never will.

Can't see spies or assassins.

[In3x]

I use it when I am first playing on a brand new campaign map. For instance I just started playing Westeros Total War and I think it's silly that you wouldn't know where the enemy settlements are so I turned it on at the start of the game to find out where settlements are. Later in games it is not necessary because you can just follow roads. Turning it off purely to get an advantage is cheating.

The AI does not have fog of war but that's because it's really really stupid and it needs every advantage it can get.

[Vanderdecken]

The great uncertainty of all data in war is a peculiar difficulty, because all action must, to a certain extent, be planned in a mere twilight, which in addition not infrequently — like the effect of a fog or moonshine — gives to things exaggerated dimensions and unnatural appearance." --Clausewitz, On War

I think to have it any other way is cheating. All is uncertain in war. Things change behind closed doors. Thus, I think it is unrealistic to know everything on the map.

[Grymloq]

cheating

[Sweger]

It is unrealistic to see all agents and armies, however, a think the fog of war covers a bit too much. For example, would be good if you from the start could see the borders of the regions, and that the map would auto update which regions are controlled by whom.

[Matthonus de Leuven]

The only time FoW annoyed me was when I started playing the game. I sometimes just couldn't find region capitals, especially in the east. I also couldn't find a landing spot in America (you can only disembark in central America). But by now I know where the settlements are positioned, so it doesn't bother me anymore.

[ChivalrousKiller]

I consider it cheating, of course. A medieval king did not have the option to press a button and magically see where his enemies were located...

[In3x]

A medieval king would also have known where all the capital cities were and who controlled which parts of Europe.

[ChivalrousKiller]

A medieval king would also have known where all the capital cities were and who controlled which parts of Europe.

No, he would not. They had much less exact maps back then (obviously), and he would also just know the locations of his closest neighbors.

Furthermore, when you start a campaign you do know where most of the capitals are located anyway. There should be no problem in finding them.

Conclusion: Use of toggle_fow is indeniably cheating. But cheating isn't necessarily "bad". If a player wishes to use toggle_fow, or other cheats, that is completely fine by me

[Teutonic Warlord]

No, he would not. They had much less exact maps back then (obviously), and he would also just know the locations of his closest neighbors.

Furthermore, when you start a campaign you do know where most of the capitals are located anyway. There should be no problem in finding them.

Conclusion: Use of toggle_fow is indeniably cheating. But cheating isn't necessarily "bad". If a player wishes to use toggle_fow, or other cheats, that is completely fine by me

I must disagree. Although you are right in that they had less accurate maps than today, you must admit that any decent ruler would think it wise to try to know what is going on in the world outside his borders. After all, the Vikings knew where Paris was so they could start a few bonfires, right? Information of happenings throughout the known world would spread around. However, it would travel VERY slowly. Spies wouldn't usually be needed to know about basic happenings such as sackings or someone taking a settlement but would be used for specifics. Personally, I would like a map and fow like Empire-but everything else from Empire can go have a tea party with arsenic.

[Aeratus]

I must disagree. Although you are right in that they had less accurate maps than today, you must admit that any decent ruler would think it wise to try to know what is going on in the world outside his borders. After all, the Vikings knew where Paris was so they could start a few bonfires, right? Information of happenings throughout the known world would spread around. However, it would travel VERY slowly. Spies wouldn't usually be needed to know about basic happenings such as sackings or someone taking a settlement but would be used for specifics. Personally, I would like a map and fow like Empire-but everything else from Empire can go have a tea party with arsenic.

Right, they had maps back then. This one is from 1154: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ta...pside-down.jpg

The locations of major cities were widely known back then. That's why the location of all settlements should be revealed.

As for movement of armies, I think the spy system should be automatic, not to the extent of toggle_fow, but to the extent that nearby provinces with trade routes should be revealed.

[ZealotsACH]

Great find on the Tabula Rogeiana. It is highly unusual for it's time. A quantum leap for cartography actually. Note that North actually is depicted at the top, which was not the custom for maps at all. That was reserved for East generally. In this case as named the picture had been scanned in backwards...

actually north is depicted at the bottom of the map. the map has been flipped in the picture.

imo, anything that isnt available in the gameplay normally is considered cheating. i don't think cheating in a single player game is bad though. whatever makes the game fun for you. cheating in a multiplayer format, however, makes you a douche.

[Aeratus]

From the point of realism, the absolute fog of war is unrealistic because you should easily know where other settlements are on the map, and any major army movements would be known to practically everybody. Even the Mongol invasion of Europe, which was one of the fastest invasion in history and came from one of the most remote corners of the world (i.e., Russia), was roughly known to Hungary and western Europe at the time (although there has been a popular myth that it wasn't known).

In-game, you have to use spies to uncover the fog. However, I think this is unnecessary micromanagement. Instead, this function of spies should be built in automatically. For example:

1. All provinces connected to a trade route should have the fog of war revealed around the settlement (as if the settlement was yours).
2. Provinces still farther away should have fog of war revealed for what happened 5 turns ago.
3. Provinces yet farther should have fog of war revealed for what happened 15 turns ago.

[Sweger]

From the point of realism, the absolute fog of war is unrealistic because you should easily know where other settlements are on the map, and any major army movements would be known to practically everybody. Even the Mongol invasion of Europe, which was one of the fastest invasion in history and came from one of the most remote corners of the world (i.e., Russia), was roughly known to Hungary and western Europe at the time (although there has been a popular myth that it wasn't known).

In-game, you have to use spies to uncover the fog. However, I think this is unnecessary micromanagement. Instead, this function of spies should be built in automatically. For example:

1. All provinces connected to a trade route should have the fog of war revealed around the settlement (as if the settlement was yours).
2. Provinces still farther away should have fog of war revealed for what happened 5 turns ago.
3. Provinces yet farther should have fog of war revealed for what happened 15 turns ago.

Yeah, that would simulate the speed of the info quite well. A pain-in-the-a**-function would be launching a kind of messenger system, youl don't even no what's happening in your own provinces if they are too far away. Use assasins to assasin messengers...And the enemy will be blindfolded. The only province you really could have any instant control of would be the one where the king happens to be. You could only control your armies and agents because they must actually receive the orders first...

[In3x]

From the point of realism, the absolute fog of war is unrealistic because you should easily know where other settlements are on the map, and any major army movements would be known to practically everybody. Even the Mongol invasion of Europe, which was one of the fastest invasion in history and came from one of the most remote corners of the world (i.e., Russia), was roughly known to Hungary and western Europe at the time (although there has been a popular myth that it wasn't known).

In-game, you have to use spies to uncover the fog. However, I think this is unnecessary micromanagement. Instead, this function of spies should be built in automatically. For example:

1. All provinces connected to a trade route should have the fog of war revealed around the settlement (as if the settlement was yours).
2. Provinces still farther away should have fog of war revealed for what happened 5 turns ago.
3. Provinces yet farther should have fog of war revealed for what happened 15 turns ago.

Fog of war that allies have revealed should also be visible, or an option can be enabled through some sort of espionage agreement in diplomacy.

[dannyalex]

cheat and makes the game very easy even at vh/vh