A Sneak Peek Preview of RESTITVTOR ORBIS

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

Well, if that's a quick one - I'd hate BOM to be on the receiving end of a considered response! Very informative, by the way. Thanks!

[Constantius]

Yes very informative, my quick responses usually contain about 10 words

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Your argument re auxiliary forts seem to me based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the way such forts worked. But that's by-the-by. As, by the way, is your dismissal of Trajan's Column. I have argued elsewhere that monumental evidence is not conclusive, and Coulston dismisses it wholesale. However, none of this invalidates the fact that Lorica Segmentata is designed to work for a very particular form of specialised combat practised by the Roman legions (and probably some auxilia) - and that discipline is EVERYTHING in the close-order manoevres required to make it work.

I really want you to explain this.

In fact, I'm part of an heretical sect of Roman militarists who believe that Roman military costume was never completely standardised and that as well as finding different units of the same troop type wearing different styles of armour,

Eh, I thought this was common knowledge already. I am almost entirely sure there was no uniformity at all. Uniform equipment is a modern thing. I would not be surprised at all if you had segmentata, hamata, squamata and unarmored guys all in the same cohort.



@Diocle Gods, you might argue that segmentata is better than mail, but not scale, of all things. Seriously?

[First Citizen Gallienus]

I'll stand by my opinion that scale armors still look awesome.

Blatta Optima Maxima wrote:
I am almost entirely sure there was no uniformity at all. Uniform equipment is a modern thing. I would not be surprised at all if you had segmentata, hamata, squamata and unarmored guys all in the same cohort.

Where were you when I asked this question?

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

I'll stand by my opinion that scale armors still look awesome.

They do.

Where were you when I asked this question?

Elaborate, please.

[First Citizen Gallienus]

It's in the Tavern. The discussion started on page 75.

[Diocle]

BOM:

1) I say whatever I want!
So now I say that Lorica Segmentata is better than mail o.c.! And I hope that my III century good guys can use extensively their wonderful, old and beloved Newstead Loricae Segmentatae!!!!

2) I never said that 'Lamellar' (not scale) is better than mail because I do not know if this might be true or not!
I said that I like Lamellar armors like those used by my ancestors: the Langbeards!

3) after the short and unfortunate tour in WH40k Universe (Remember BOM There you'll find only war!), probably, now you and your clan will need good and soft cushions to sit for a very long amount of time........

Returning to the topic, I frequently come here and dream!.....I want my Newstead and Imperial Italic legions to crush the world!!!.....But Diocletianus is right the Squamata Legions are wonderful, .......Please give us more and more different legions!!! and the maximum amount of choices about the different types of armors to use!....and maybe some new update, now you are the best Team for RTW!!! it has been stated by democratic consensus!

[First Citizen Gallienus]

Yeah, Lamellar armor is awesome too.

But who made those helmets that the Alan Cavalry use, was it the Sarmatian tribes themselves?

I'm trying to find a picture of one. The Xiong Nu cavalry use it in the mod as well I believe.

[Diocle]

Here one, it is Langobard, this kind of helmets (Niederstotzingen) came into use in the VII century between the Avars, in these Mods they are used for the Huns, but sadly this is not historically correct, the Huns used Spangenhelms or Ridge Helmets, but I do not say nothing because I like them too much!

So here a magnificent Langobard Helmet, this kind of Helmets is called Niederstotzingen:

[First Citizen Gallienus]

Ah I see. A rather disappointing fact, but still a cool helmet regardless.

[Diocle]

Look, IMHO the best two types of hemets in human History are the Niederstotzingen and the Niederbieber, and for infantry the best is o.c. the Imperial Italic H or Niedermormter!

[Ptolemy1Soter]

Has anyone else looked at the helmet development of the romans? It shows how their enemies got gradually heavier and more skillful. -> -> -> ->

[Roman Soldier]

I just came!

[Diocle]

The so called 'academia' should not be considered a fetish or something like a Totem, if we consider that the positions in the academy world change following the atmosphere and cultural fashions rather than the research, even the political different climates influence the so called 'academy': Think about the common idiotic views, accepted by the Academy world during the Nazi Governement of Germany!
The German Archeology supporting the idiotic points of view of Adolf Hitler about the supposed purity of the Germanic ethnic substrate! Hundred of German Archeologists, searching in all the lands of Europe, signs of the graet Indoeuropean purity of the Germanic Nation, hundreds of academic morons searching for signs useful to prve the criminal intentions of the Nazis to conquer the Slavic lands! The idiotic teories of the academy about the racial superiority of Indo-Europeans or Indo-Germanic peoples (as still today in Germany they are called).

Think about the Granite certainties of the so called 'academy' about the criminal anthropology, during the last part of the XIX century: If your cranial measurements were among those considered clear signs of a criminal mind, well, you was a criminal! This form of idiotic and moronic antropology was used also in the courts to send poor men in prison.

The academy is interesting, but it's composed by men interested in their careers (money), influenced by the cultural mood of the period, influenced by the political athmosphere of the moment, so the 'academiy' should be watched carefully and with with critical spirit.

The academy said us that the lorica Segmentata was not used during the late third century, and the academy was wrong of course! The find in Spain of an exemplar of LS belonging to the IV century destroied the Granite certainties of the Academy!

The German Academic World considered Heinrich Schliemann a poor mad , but Shliemann foud Troy and Mycenae!

The Academic World frequently is too fast in finding moronic certainties! That they are ready to change when the cultural mood changes! Let me use a not academic italian word to define the academics: 'PARACULI'! ....the English translation is not simple, but it is a mix between the State bureaucrat, and a person, very careful to safeguard its own interests of career and position.... all this must be said considering the proper exceptions, of course!

But this is my direct personal knowledge of the so called 'Academy' that I built during my university years, an inside view in some way.

[ray243]

The German Archeology supporting the idiotic points of view of Adolf Hitler about the supposed purity of the Germanic ethnic substrate! Hundred of German Archeologists, searching in all the lands of Europe, signs of the graet Indoeuropean purity of the Germanic Nation, hundreds of academic morons searching for signs useful to prve the criminal intentions of the Nazis to conquer the Slavic lands! The idiotic teories of the academy about the racial superiority of Indo-Europeans or Indo-Germanic peoples (as still today in Germany they are called).

We do not need to compare the Nazi to modern day scientist and historians.

The academy is interesting, but it's composed by men interested in their careers (money), influenced by the cultural mood of the period, influenced by the political athmosphere of the moment, so the 'academiy' should be watched carefully and with with critical spirit.

Well, even if there is an element of bias among the academia, it is still better than a person posting his views without being challenged. If historians can change their view that LS was actually made of metal rather than lethal, why can't historians reconsider their position as well?

The academy said us that the lorica Segmentata was not used during the late third century, and the academy was wrong of course! The find in Spain of an exemplar of LS belonging to the IV century destroied the Granite certainties of the Academy!

The academia is capable of changing their views, as long as there is sufficient evidence to proof it.

But this is my direct personal knowledge of the so called 'Academy' that I built during my university years, an inside view in some way.

Even then, I would still value the word from the academia higher than a "pop" historian who is out to make a quick buck by sensationalising history.

[M. Licinius Ibeii]

Ray, I cant give you the references right now, as I'm teaching in America and don't have access to my books. However, I would say that as far as arms & armour are concerned, Coulston is one of the acknowledged experts on the subject and what he knows about the minutiae of Lorica Segmentata puts my sketchy knowledge to shame. From memory, he was trying to explain why (with the exception of monumental architecture which is not a reliable source for extant armours of the period as it often copies the monuments of earlier emperors - viz the Column of Marcus Aurelius and the Arch of Constantine), Lorica Segmentata seems to have gone out of use by the mid C4th.

As for the 'near collapse' of the empire in 259, those are my words and I stand by them. You must be aware by now that my position is that Gallienus lost c.2/3 of the empire after the capture of his father in 259, and along with it many of the empire's most fertile recruiting grounds - his recruitment of the equites and his (probable) foedus with Pipa's father are a reflection of this. With the rise of the Illyrian Soldier Emperors, all of whom learned their trade either under Gallienus or under one of his proteges, what Luttwak used to call 'Defence in Depth' began to take hold, requiring a greater emphasis on cavalry and more easily manoeuvrable troops. The legions didn't die out and the empire didn't collapse - as the career of Aurelian amply demonstrates - but a fundamental shift in thinking had occurred which eventually rendered the old Strength Through Superior Pilum-Power (my phrase) way of doing things obsolete. Don't confuse the (completely accurate) interpretation of the archaeology which shows that the social infrastructure of the empire remained intact - and in certain places may have even thrived - with the short-term political disaster of 259 which created a catalyst for change that ultimately altered the look of the Roman army forever.

And thank you for your defence of the Academy. Diocle, you need to understand is that what you are describing as a problem is all part of the process. It's as true for science as it is for history. Every new idea starts out as a single person's (re-)interpretation of the available evidence, often resisted by the general consensus of the time, until enough evidence emerges to either confirm or refute the theory. ALL academics and historians are influenced by the social norms of their age, as are their readers and people writing in blogs like this - and that is just as true for the sources we rely on as it is for the historians interpreting those sources. Vegetius was a retired major-general type writing a military manual designed to show that the army of the past was better than the army of his present; Ammianus Marcellinus was a Roman politician (and therefore an ex-soldier) trying to understand how the empire of his day had reached its current state; Andreas Alfoldi was a German historian relying on C4th sources to explain C3rd history (which is why he became obsessed with the so-called 'pre-comitatus'); and virtually every historian who came out of the sixties was influenced in one way or another by the work of Karl Marx. Yet despite the fact that I fundamentally disagree with Alfoldi about the 'independent mobile cavalry field army of Gallienus' (which I am convinced did not exist), I still respect his work and the incredible depth of his knowledge, which makes me look like an amateur in comparison.

Academics LIVE this stuff. What Coulston knows about the development of Lorica Segmentata would take me a lifetime I don't have to learn. But RAy's right, that shouldn't stop us from asking 'What's your evidence?' and interrogating the argument. After all, that's what academic debate is all about.

[Sertorio]

. Yet despite the fact that I fundamentally disagree with Alfoldi about the 'independent mobile cavalry field army of Gallienus' (which I am convinced did not exist), I still respect his work and the incredible depth of his knowledge, which makes me look like an amateur in comparison.

Maybe an independent cavalry army, aiming to support infantry forces in route or already at the conflict region ? Third Century is prior the Limitanei/Comitatenses, right ? If so most of the Legions would still be t the borders though already understrenght. There are very interesting threads, by Pompeus Magnum, bout the Legions, in the Ages of Darkness II subforum.

you couldn't find a Roman militarist writing then or now who would categorically state that it had completely dropped out of use.

Yes and most of the historians of that era don't go in so much detail, about types of armour or weaponry.A Spatha can be called a Gladius, for example. Scholars like A. Golsdworthy or Connolly refer to that problem several times in their books.

that fragments of c.20 suits of LS have been discovered alongside suits of hamata and squamata in a storehouse within the legionary fortress of Legio VII Gemina which MAY date to the late C3rd/early C4th.

My Portuguese allows me at least to browse a spanish text. In pag. 162 it reads that the archeological layer were the armour was found had also remains of pottery and coins from the era of Galieno.

Always a pleasure to read M. Licinius Ibeii.

My bet is that either it became so difficult to maintain and repair LS to keep them serviceable that they were abandoned, or that that the changes in the fighting style rendered it obsolete.

[ray243]

Maybe an independent cavalry army, aiming to support infantry forces in route or already at the conflict region ? Third Century is prior the Limitanei/Comitatenses, right ? If so most of the Legions would still be t the borders though already understrenght. There are very interesting threads, by Pompeus Magnum, bout the Legions, in the Ages of Darkness II subforum.

There is also a central infantry reserve as well. Legio II Parthica was perhaps the forefather of the comitatenses, as it always accompanied the Emperor rather than being stationed on the frontier during much of the third century.

Look up Roger Tomlin and his ideas about the Legio II Parthica as an early version of the Comitatenses.

[M. Licinius Ibeii]

The academy said us that the lorica Segmentata was not used during the late third century, and the academy was wrong of course! The find in Spain of an exemplar of LS belonging to the IV century destroied the Granite certainties of the Academy!

We need to be very careful here. First, the Academy has not said that Lorica Segmentata was not used during the late C3rd. When I was writing my thesis in the 1990s, the general consensus was that it was going out of fashion during the late C3rd, but I'm willing to bet that you couldn't find a Roman militarist writing then or now who would categorically state that it had completely dropped out of use.

Secondly, we need to wait for the archaeological report before we jump to any conclusions about the Leon Lorica. So far, all I know from Spanish newspaper reports, riddled with so many schoolboy errors that they were patently written by someone who didn't know what they were talking about, is that fragments of c.20 suits of LS have been discovered alongside suits of hamata and squamata in a storehouse within the legionary fortress of Legio VII Gemina which MAY date to the late C3rd/early C4th.

It's technically possible that this may be part of a fabrica or armamentarium (and wouldn't the archaeologist in charge just love that to be the case!). It's also technically possible that it's just a storehouse where obsolete suits of armour were being mothballed. It is however much more likely to be a storehouse/repair shop for armour that was still being used - but that's just my own educated guess.

If so, all that shows is that the legions were still storing LS in the late C3rd, which I could have told you in the 1990s. It's not stunning revelation! Nor does it prove that all academics are wrong.

[SeniorBatavianHorse]

If anyone can read Spanish, this might shed some light? I posted elsewhere re this a few days ago but nobody came forward to precise or translate it, alas.

Page 177 has what seems to be an interesting table, for example . . .