A Sneak Peek Preview of RESTITVTOR ORBIS

[Constantius]

You feel free Diocle ...Can you think of a Latin author who has mentioned the polis of Byzantium...that does not write in Greek?

[Diocle]

No at the moment, so I'll try...wait....wait ....wait....(what a gift!! Thanks Cons!!)....wait.....Muahahahaahah!!


with some secret help........ here our Dione book 75, 12.1:

"..Many, now, were the exploits and the experiences of the Byzantines, since for the entire space of three years they were besieged by the armaments of practically the whole world. I shall relate a few of the incidents that were in any way marvellous. They used to capture not only ships that were sailing past, by making opportune attacks, but also triremes that were in their opponents' roadstead."

[Constantius]

I will be waiting...wait who wrote about Constantine's re-founding of the city?

[Diocle]

young Constantius you are not my theacher and I'm too old to be your student, I translated () only to help the people here who cannot understand the wonderful Ancient Greek language but here my work ends!

[Constantius]

La ringrazio molto, il mio amico

[Diocle]

Constantius il tuo italiano è buono! I have to thank you for all your work here! we have some small differences in our points of view about the role of Byzantium from the VI century on, but my estimate for you do not change now and it will not change in the future!
At you service Clarissimus!!!

P.S.: If Constantinus (UT EUM DII DEAEQUE PERDANT IN AETERNUM!!) did not change his capital and maintained Nicomedia as the Capital for the East, probably History would have been very different for Greece and Italy and the West, but no, he had to destroy all the work of Diocletianus, he had to change all, he had to build his own monument! Well, we can only look at the ruins cursing his damned name!
Obviously this is my humble and personal point of view, that will be totally isolated and minority, but I cannot change my mind to please the people. So as said the Leutenant Colonel of the Regio Esercito my grandfather: "Beata solitudo, sola beatitudo!"

[Constantius]

Tac. Ann. 2.54
Then he directed his course to Eubœa and crossed to Lesbos, where Agrippina for the last time was confined and gave birth to Julia. He then penetrated to the remoter parts of the province of Asia, visited the Thracian cities, Perinthus and Byzantium; next, the narrow strait of the the Propontis and the entrance of the Pontus, from an anxious wish to become acquainted with those ancient and celebrated localities

Petita inde Euboea tramisit Lesbum ubi Agrippina novissimo partu Iuliam edidit. tum extrema Asiae Perinthumque ac Byzantium, Thraecias urbes, mox Propontidis angustias et os Ponticum intrat, cupidine veteres locos et fama celebratos noscendi

My Italian is far from good, I know a few phrases here and there, my sister in-law is a Roman! and as I said worked for long time in Italian restaurants including one called La Lupa

PS Not that young either
PPS Sozomen (d. c. 450 CE), Ecclesiastical History, II.3 cannot find a copy, but that describes Constantine's foundation of Constantinople

[Diocle]

Wonderful find!! Tacitus!!! Annales!.....I'm an illitterate!

P.s.: Do you know the meaning of the word 'Lupa' in Latin?........It projects an evil light on Romolus and Remus and their mom but.....it is better not to speak too much about this it might be a little embarassing for the Eternal City reputation..........

[Constantius]

Yes Romulus and Remus where outside the building.
Also Cicero mentions Byzantium several times, once being in Sestius. 26

[Diocle]

But the Mod is well developed, this is good, this is very good.........Thank julianus, this is a dream!!!!

[Emperor Caesar]

NO don't take away my LS legionnaires haha.

[Constantius]

I think the 'reforms' should come in with buildings, that way you won't have a complete new set of units all over empire, but phased in

[Diocle]

Blatta Optima Maxima, my dear friend!
I remind you that you opened an interesting (but for you unfortunate....) thread about Lorica Segmentata and mail, please do not try to involve in your dutful disquisitions about your beloved mail the unsospecting and innocent M.Licinius!!!
Speak with me my dear about your f mail theories in your old thread!!!!

[Knonfoda]

lol... I've missed your bluntness Diocle. It borders on the abuse, and you can't tell whether you're being genuinely friendly or just soul crushingly sarcastic. I like it. Rep to you sir.

[Blatta Optima Maxima]

Why was it only used by Roman legionaries and not the auxilia?

Here's the underlying flaw with your point. There is no evidence of it being legionary exclusive. In fact, we know very well that the main armor throughout the empire era remained mail. Trajan's column is unreliable in this aspect, and has been known to be for a long time. In fact, IIRC most LS finds come from AUXILIARY FORTS.

Since you are basing your entire argument on this inherently flawed assumption, I call your point moot.

[First Citizen Gallienus]

Here's the underlying flaw with your point. There is no evidence of it being legionary exclusive. In fact, we know very well that the main armor throughout the empire era remained mail. Trajan's column is unreliable in this aspect, and has been known to be for a long time. In fact, IIRC most LS finds come from AUXILIARY FORTS.

Since you are basing your entire argument on this inherently flawed assumption, I call your point moot.

However viable your statements are Blatta, the guy does put forth some interesting thoughts. I would have to say your main weakness in these types of discussions is your lack of a certain value which I consider very important, that is, 'when discussing these types of things, one of the most important things you can do is not to disregard any possibilities.'
But then again, that's just my opinion.

[Diocle]

My dear Licinius, I advised you! Blatta is a friend but he is also an hard task!!!

I tried to save you! Being an old and noble veteran of the First Great Segmentata War (first quarter of II millennium AD), I tried to avoid a new bloody war!.....but now....probably is too late! A new War has started! Many will be the battles and great! Immense destruction and death everywhere! Countless lamentations for the fallen!...I tried to save you!!...I tried!....

I've missed your bluntness Diocle. It borders on the abuse, and you can't tell whether you're being genuinely friendly or just soul crushingly sarcastic

......bluntness! .........abuse! .......crushingly sarcastic! ....Me? All these things? Noooo! I'm always a genuine duelist, as I said to Blatta, I practicised fencing many years, so probably sometime I may be a little pointed, and I like always a good and hard fight!...But always in an open way! Always gazing in the eyes the enemy, always!
"Noblesse oblige mon ami!...Noblesse oblige!!"

Sorry for the interruction, gentlemen: "continuer!"


....Waiting for some news and a new preview, maybe The Preview of my dreams.........

[Diocletianus]

I found your points interesting M. Licinius Ibeii, thank you for sharing us your thoughts.

For the Segmentata war Diocle, I am for the Squamata !



To war the eastern legio !

[Diocle]

....Yeah! Squamata is good! But at this point I have to declare that I'm for 'Lamellar'! Like my Langobards ancestors!

Anyway I'm too old to fight these wars, and now I'm a loyal friend of BOM , so I'll remain out of this new struggle!

I think that in RO we will see some good Newstead LS, but in the III century mail won! So I'll wait for many good Legions, mailed, with magnificent helmets (Imperial Italics please!) and maybe some good scale armor for the Eastern Legions, that obviously I'll destroy with my Western and Illyrian Legions!......And finally, when I'll have reuinited the Empire under Roma and Her Eagles,.............I'll start to mass produce, in the Fabricae, Newstead LS o.c., in never before seen amounts!!!

RO! What a sweet dream is this Mod!....................

[M. Licinius Ibeii]

Hey Blatta, this is gonna have to be quick one, as I'm firing it off between set changes - but to your argument about LS & auxiliary forts, can I refer you to Michael Bishop in his exemplary 'Handbook of Articlated Roman Plate Armour' Vol 1 (Armatura 2002):

"Our evidence seems to point fairly convincingly tothe fact that segmental body armour was primarily a legionary (and praetorian) form of defence. This does not mean that legionaries used it to the exclusion of other types, since there is ample evidence for the use of scale and mail amongst the legions throughout the Principate (and arguably on into the Dominate), simply that it was a form of armour that seems mainly (on the limited evidence exclusively) to have been issued to the legions and the Praetorian Guard.
It has been suggested that the discovery of fragments of lorica segmentata
at many supposedly auxiliary sites implies that auxiliary infantry also habitually used the same form of cuirass, but this can equally be countered by suggesting that bases that have traditionally been identified as auxiliary may not have held a purely auxiliary garrison. The detailed arguments on both sides have been rehearsed elsewhere and need not be repeated beyond this briefest of summaries.
Interestingly, although it has been speculated that equipment differentiation decreased between legionary and auxiliary troops during the 2nd century, there is infact no more evidence than for the earlier period that auxiliariesused the lorica segmentata beyond the discoveryof pieces at sites (such as Zugmantel, Great Chesters,and South Shields) traditionally thought to have been associated exclusively with auxiliaries. Legionaries were certainly still using it during the 2nd and 3rd centuries,as is abundantly clear from the tie rings found in the Roman Gates barrack area at Caerleon."

Your argument re auxiliary forts seem to me based on a fundamental misunderstanding of the way such forts worked. But that's by-the-by. As, by the way, is your dismissal of Trajan's Column. I have argued elsewhere that monumental evidence is not conclusive, and Coulston dismisses it wholesale. However, none of this invalidates the fact that Lorica Segmentata is designed to work for a very particular form of specialised combat practised by the Roman legions (and probably some auxilia) - and that discipline is EVERYTHING in the close-order manoevres required to make it work.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if certain auxiliaries did wear Lorica Segmentata - and I'm damned sure that some legionaries were wearing Hamata during Segmentata's golden age. In fact, I'm part of an heretical sect of Roman militarists who believe that Roman military costume was never completely standardised and that as well as finding different units of the same troop type wearing different styles of armour, you would probably find members of the SAME unit wearing different types of armour - which is one among many possible reasons why you will find pieces of segmentata alongside hamata and even squamata in the same fort.

But that's just my own personal opinion, and I wouldn't like to ram it down anyone else's throat