Somalia

[Rhah]

Somalia, as you may have heard, is not a very nice place to live. Its been in a constant state of strife since the Communist governement collapsed in th 80's. Recently, the northern part of the country has tried to break away and form a seperate country, called Somaliland, and has been reasonably successful in restoring some sort of order, but the south (including Mogadishu) is still pretty bad.
Lately, a group of warlords in Mogadishu have banded together with the Somali government in exile (based in Kenya) and tried to "retake" the city. This hasnt gone too well, and the warlords had started fighting each other again.

Anyway, in the last few days their has been some semi-serious fighting between the forces of the warlords and the forces of the Islamists. Basically, the warlords accuse them islamists of sheltering foreign fighters and Al Qaida members, and generally causing unrest.

BBC Report on mogadishu violence

I smell CIA involvement in this. its already been alledged that the CIA are paying the warlords to capture "people of interest", and what worries me is that if the CIA start shipping weapons to the warlords, once the islamists are defeated the civil war will seriously intensify.

BBC Report on Somalia and the "war on terror"

[Ahlerich]

lol seems like nobody here cares about the skinnies right now

[wilpuri]

Oh crap this means that we can't send back all those friggen criminals... Just when it was declared safe enough for re-patriation.

[Freddie]

Oh crap this means that we can't send back all those friggen criminals... Just when it was declared safe enough for re-patriation.

I think there is an interesting debate on whether migrants who go to other countries illegal and commit a crime such as murder should be either deported immediately or put on trail and be made to serve a sentence at the tax payers expense. I might prepare it tonight using citing the murder of the Police women who got killed recently (in the UK) as a example.

I'm sure the millions of starving and malnourished people of the world would readily "absorb" it

I don't believe throwing money at the issue is the best way to solve global poverty.

[Rhah]

True, it does seem like no one seems to care, especially after what happened in 93.
Now that we have this lovely Global war on terror though, im sure Somalia will be recieving a lot more attention.
Is it better that they recieve attention from the CIA ,which could possibly lead to them being considered in US foreign policy, which in turn could lead to more aid and assistance for the people, but also more weapons for the warlords.
or should we just leave them alone to sort their problems out? (which they have been trying to do, albeit quite slowly and with mixed results)

[Manji]

Get ready to see your streets filled with these:



and when people start calling me racist don't forget that the solution to the problem isn't to immigrate. I too have been unemployed but I haven't left my country nor do I resort to criminal activities.

[dgoodman]

Get ready to see your streets filled with these:



and when people start calling me racist don't forget that the solution to the problem isn't to immigrate. I too have been unemployed but I haven't left my country nor do I resort to criminal activities.

Do you live in Somalia? If you did i bet youd be on the first boat to spain. Emmigration is one of the few options that people in failed states have to better themselves and they probably wont be getting to europe of the US but to ethiopia or other african nations that at least are stable.

[Yorkshireman]

Do you live in Somalia? If you did i bet youd be on the first boat to spain.

Then you'd have a long bloody journey. Somalia is in East Africa, it's closer to India than it is to Spain !

[Legiondude]

Get ready to see your streets filled with these:



and when people start calling me racist don't forget that the solution to the problem isn't to immigrate. I too have been unemployed but I haven't left my country nor do I resort to criminal activities.

Do you live in a nation that has been in a state of civil war since 1980'
Yes or no?

I don't know where you live now, but that is quite an evil thing to post, and do the people on that picuture agree to you posting it. And are they even somali?

If I'd been living in Africa the first thing I would do was to get out, right now people there have no Future the white man [including my self] steeel their recurses, and care not of anything else......
Maybe not in Somalia, but the rest of afrika

[Garbarsardar]

Get ready to see your streets filled with these:



and when people start calling me racist don't forget that the solution to the problem isn't to immigrate. I too have been unemployed but I haven't left my country nor do I resort to criminal activities.

Manji is Portuguese. Portuguese people never immigrated. They never had colonies. The majority of immigrants in Portugal is not coming from the former colonies. Capo Verde and Angola are not real countries. I am not Garb. The list that follows is a figment of my imagination:

PORTUGEUSE COLONIES
in Africa

* Angola/Portuguese West Africa - colony (1575-1589); crown colony (1589-1951); overseas province (1951-1975). Independence in 1975.
* Arguin/Arguim - (1455-1633)
* Cabinda - protectorate (1883-1887); Congo district (1887-1921); intendancy subordinate to Maquela (1921-1922); dependency of Zaire district (1922-1930); Intendacy of Zaire and Cabinda (1930-1932); intendancy under Angola (1932-1934); dependancy under Angola (1934-1945); restored as District (1946-1975). Controlled by Frente Nacional para a Libertação de Angola (National Liberation Front of Angola) as part of independent Angola in 1975. Declared Cabinda a Republic in 1975, but not recognized by Portugal nor Angola.
* Cabo Verde/Cape Verde - settlements (1462-1495); dominion of crown colonies (1495-1587); crown colony (1587-1951); overseas province (1951-1974); autonomous republic (1974-1975). Independence in 1975.
* Ceuta - possession (1415-1640). Became Spanish colony in 1640.
* Fernando Póo and Annobón - colonies (1474-1778). Ceded to Spain in 1778.
* Portuguese Gold Coast - (1482-1642), ceded to Dutch Gold Coast in 1642
* Guiné Portuguesa/Portuguese Guinea - colony (1879-1951); overseas province (1951-1974). Unilateral independence declared in 1973, recognized by Portugal in 1974.
o Cacheu - captaincy (1640-1879). United with Bissau in 1879.
o Bissau - settlement under Cacheu (1687-1696); captaincy (1696-1707); abandoned (1707-1753); separate colony under Cape Verde (1753-1879). United with Cacheu in 1879.
* Mombassa - occupation (1593-1638); colony subordinate to Goa (1638-1698; 1728-1729). Under Omani sovereignty in 1729.
* Morocco enclaves
o Aguz/Souira Guedima (1506-1525)
o Alcacer Ceguer/El Qsar es Seghir (1458-1550)
o Arzila/Asilah (1471-1550; 1577-1589). Restored to Morocco in 1589.
o Azamor/Azemmour (1513-1541). City restored to Morocco in 1541.
o Mazagan/El Jadida (1485-1550); possession (1506-1769). Incorporation into Morocco in 1769.
o Safim/Safi (1488-1541)
o Santa Cruz do Cabo de Gué/Agadir (1505-1541)
* Moçambique (Mozambique/Portuguese East Africa) - possession (1498-1501); subordinate to Goa (1501-1569); captaincy-general (1569-1609); colony subordinate to Goa (1609-1752); colony (1752-1951); overseas province (1951-1974); local administration (1974-1975). Independence in 1975.
* São João Baptista de Ajudá - fort subordinate to Brazil (1721-1730); subordinate to São Tomé e Príncipe (1865-1869). Annexed by Dahomey in 1961.
* São Tomé e Príncipe - crown colony (1753-1951); overseas province (1951-1971); local administration (1971-1975). Independence in 1975.
o São Tomé - Possession (1470-1485); colony (1485-1522); crown colony (1522-1641); administration under Dutch occupation (1641-1648). French occupation in 1648.
o Príncipe - colony (1500-1573). United with São Tomé in 1573.
* Tangier - possession (1471-1662). Ceded to England in 1662.
* Zanzibar - possession (1503-1698). Became part of Oman in 1698.



in the Americas & North Atlantic

* Azores - colonies (1427-1766); captaincy-general (1766-1831); overseas district (1831-1976). Made an autonomous region in 1976.
* Brazil - possession known as Ilha de Santa Cruz, later Terra de Vera Cruz (1500-1530); colony (1530- 1714); vice-kingdom (1714-1815); kingdom under United Kingdom of Portugal (1815-1822), independence in 1822.
* French Guiana - occupation (1809-1817). Restored to France in 1817.
* Madeira - possession (1418-1420); colony (1420-1580); crown colony (1580-1834); overseas district (1834-1976). Made an autonomous region in 1976.
* Nova Colônia do Sacramento - colony in present Uruguay (1680; 1683-1705; 1715-1777). Ceded to Spain in 1777.



in Asia

* Ceylon - colony (1597-1658). Dutch took control in 1656, Jaffna taken in 1658.
* Hormuz/Ormuz - possession subordinate to Goa (1515-1622). Incorporated into Persia in 1622.
* Macau/Macao - settlement (1553-1557), leased territory subordinated to Goa (1557-1844); overseas province (1844-1883); combined overseas province with Timor-Leste under Goa (1883-1951); overseas province (1951-1975); overseas territory (1975-1999). Returned to China (with sovereignty transferred to the People's Republic of China) as a special administrative region in 1999.
o Coloane - occupation in 1864
o Taipa - occupation in 1851
o Ilha Verde - incorporated in 1890
o Lapa and Montanha Islands - occupation (1938-1941). Taken by Japan and restored to China.
* Malacca - settlement (1511-1641); lost to the Dutch
* Moluccas
o Amboina/Ambon - settlement (1576-1605)
o Ternate - settlement (1522-1575)
o Tidore - colony (1578-1605). Seized by Dutch in 1605.
* Muscat - possession (1515-1650)
* Índia Portuguesa/Portuguese India - overseas province (1946-1962). Annexed by India in 1962 and recognised by Portugal in 1974.
o Baçaim/Vasai - possession (1535-1739)
o Cannanore - possession (1502-1663)
o Cochin - possession (1500–1663)
o Cranganore - possession (1536-1662)
o Damão/Daman - acquisition in 1559. Became part of overseas province in 1946.
o Diu - acquisition in 1535. Became part of overseas province in 1946.
o Dadra - acquisition in 1779. Occupied by India in 1954.
o Goa - colony (1510-1946). Became part of overseas province in 1946.
o Nagar Haveli - acquisition in 1779. Occupied by India in 1954.
o Quilon - possession (1502-1661)
o São Tomé de Meliapore - settlement (1523-1662; 1687-1749)
* Socotra - possession (1506-1511). Became part of Mahri Sultanate of Qishn and Suqutra
* Timor-Leste (East-Timor) - colony subordinate to Portuguese India (1642-1844); subordinate to Macau (1844-1896); separate colony (1896-1951); overseas territory (1951-1975); republic and unilateral indepedence proclaimed, annexed by Indonesia (1975-1999, UN recognition as Portuguese territory). UN administration from 1999 until independence in 2002.

[wilpuri]

Manji is Portuguese. Portuguese people never immigrated. They never had colonies. The majority of immigrants in Portugal is not coming from the former colonies. Capo Verde and Angola are not real countries. I am not Garb. The list that follows is a figment of my imagination:

PORTUGEUSE COLONIES
in Africa

* Angola/Portuguese West Africa - colony (1575-1589); crown colony (1589-1951); overseas province (1951-1975). Independence in 1975.
* Arguin/Arguim - (1455-1633)
* Cabinda - protectorate (1883-1887); Congo district (1887-1921); intendancy subordinate to Maquela (1921-1922); dependency of Zaire district (1922-1930); Intendacy of Zaire and Cabinda (1930-1932); intendancy under Angola (1932-1934); dependancy under Angola (1934-1945); restored as District (1946-1975). Controlled by Frente Nacional para a Libertação de Angola (National Liberation Front of Angola) as part of independent Angola in 1975. Declared Cabinda a Republic in 1975, but not recognized by Portugal nor Angola.
* Cabo Verde/Cape Verde - settlements (1462-1495); dominion of crown colonies (1495-1587); crown colony (1587-1951); overseas province (1951-1974); autonomous republic (1974-1975). Independence in 1975.
* Ceuta - possession (1415-1640). Became Spanish colony in 1640.
* Fernando Póo and Annobón - colonies (1474-1778). Ceded to Spain in 1778.
* Portuguese Gold Coast - (1482-1642), ceded to Dutch Gold Coast in 1642
* Guiné Portuguesa/Portuguese Guinea - colony (1879-1951); overseas province (1951-1974). Unilateral independence declared in 1973, recognized by Portugal in 1974.
o Cacheu - captaincy (1640-1879). United with Bissau in 1879.
o Bissau - settlement under Cacheu (1687-1696); captaincy (1696-1707); abandoned (1707-1753); separate colony under Cape Verde (1753-1879). United with Cacheu in 1879.
* Mombassa - occupation (1593-1638); colony subordinate to Goa (1638-1698; 1728-1729). Under Omani sovereignty in 1729.
* Morocco enclaves
o Aguz/Souira Guedima (1506-1525)
o Alcacer Ceguer/El Qsar es Seghir (1458-1550)
o Arzila/Asilah (1471-1550; 1577-1589). Restored to Morocco in 1589.
o Azamor/Azemmour (1513-1541). City restored to Morocco in 1541.
o Mazagan/El Jadida (1485-1550); possession (1506-1769). Incorporation into Morocco in 1769.
o Safim/Safi (1488-1541)
o Santa Cruz do Cabo de Gué/Agadir (1505-1541)
* Moçambique (Mozambique/Portuguese East Africa) - possession (1498-1501); subordinate to Goa (1501-1569); captaincy-general (1569-1609); colony subordinate to Goa (1609-1752); colony (1752-1951); overseas province (1951-1974); local administration (1974-1975). Independence in 1975.
* São João Baptista de Ajudá - fort subordinate to Brazil (1721-1730); subordinate to São Tomé e Príncipe (1865-1869). Annexed by Dahomey in 1961.
* São Tomé e Príncipe - crown colony (1753-1951); overseas province (1951-1971); local administration (1971-1975). Independence in 1975.
o São Tomé - Possession (1470-1485); colony (1485-1522); crown colony (1522-1641); administration under Dutch occupation (1641-1648). French occupation in 1648.
o Príncipe - colony (1500-1573). United with São Tomé in 1573.
* Tangier - possession (1471-1662). Ceded to England in 1662.
* Zanzibar - possession (1503-1698). Became part of Oman in 1698.



in the Americas & North Atlantic

* Azores - colonies (1427-1766); captaincy-general (1766-1831); overseas district (1831-1976). Made an autonomous region in 1976.
* Brazil - possession known as Ilha de Santa Cruz, later Terra de Vera Cruz (1500-1530); colony (1530- 1714); vice-kingdom (1714-1815); kingdom under United Kingdom of Portugal (1815-1822), independence in 1822.
* French Guiana - occupation (1809-1817). Restored to France in 1817.
* Madeira - possession (1418-1420); colony (1420-1580); crown colony (1580-1834); overseas district (1834-1976). Made an autonomous region in 1976.
* Nova Colônia do Sacramento - colony in present Uruguay (1680; 1683-1705; 1715-1777). Ceded to Spain in 1777.



in Asia

* Ceylon - colony (1597-1658). Dutch took control in 1656, Jaffna taken in 1658.
* Hormuz/Ormuz - possession subordinate to Goa (1515-1622). Incorporated into Persia in 1622.
* Macau/Macao - settlement (1553-1557), leased territory subordinated to Goa (1557-1844); overseas province (1844-1883); combined overseas province with Timor-Leste under Goa (1883-1951); overseas province (1951-1975); overseas territory (1975-1999). Returned to China (with sovereignty transferred to the People's Republic of China) as a special administrative region in 1999.
o Coloane - occupation in 1864
o Taipa - occupation in 1851
o Ilha Verde - incorporated in 1890
o Lapa and Montanha Islands - occupation (1938-1941). Taken by Japan and restored to China.
* Malacca - settlement (1511-1641); lost to the Dutch
* Moluccas
o Amboina/Ambon - settlement (1576-1605)
o Ternate - settlement (1522-1575)
o Tidore - colony (1578-1605). Seized by Dutch in 1605.
* Muscat - possession (1515-1650)
* Índia Portuguesa/Portuguese India - overseas province (1946-1962). Annexed by India in 1962 and recognised by Portugal in 1974.
o Baçaim/Vasai - possession (1535-1739)
o Cannanore - possession (1502-1663)
o Cochin - possession (1500–1663)
o Cranganore - possession (1536-1662)
o Damão/Daman - acquisition in 1559. Became part of overseas province in 1946.
o Diu - acquisition in 1535. Became part of overseas province in 1946.
o Dadra - acquisition in 1779. Occupied by India in 1954.
o Goa - colony (1510-1946). Became part of overseas province in 1946.
o Nagar Haveli - acquisition in 1779. Occupied by India in 1954.
o Quilon - possession (1502-1661)
o São Tomé de Meliapore - settlement (1523-1662; 1687-1749)
* Socotra - possession (1506-1511). Became part of Mahri Sultanate of Qishn and Suqutra
* Timor-Leste (East-Timor) - colony subordinate to Portuguese India (1642-1844); subordinate to Macau (1844-1896); separate colony (1896-1951); overseas territory (1951-1975); republic and unilateral indepedence proclaimed, annexed by Indonesia (1975-1999, UN recognition as Portuguese territory). UN administration from 1999 until independence in 2002.

Uhm, I don't quite understand? Are you saying, that because Portuguese people (not Manji thoguh, as far as I know) emigrated and established colonies (like every major European power, pretty much), he should welcome social parasites from abroad?

[Garbarsardar]

Uhm, I don't quite understand? Are you saying, that because Portuguese people (not Manji thoguh, as far as I know) emigrated and established colonies (like every major European power, pretty much), he should welcome social parasites from abroad?

Nope. I'm saying that if people treated their colonies better there would not be "social parasites". And what do you mean "from abroad" Wil? Our indigenous "social parasites" should be welcomed?

Oh, and BTW "social parasites" were termed the Italians and Irish in the east coast. And the Jews. Such characterizations are too vague to promote any understanding on the roots of immigration, or to sustain any effort to reverse this trend.

Or do you believe that we've reached the point that we should get some machettes and AK-47's and "wash the filth from our streets" ?

[wilpuri]

Nope. I'm saying that if people treated their colonies better there would not be "social parasites". And what do you mean "from abroad" Wil? Our indigenous "social parasites" should be welcomed?

Oh, and BTW "social parasites" were termed the Italians and Irish in the east coast. And the Jews. Such characterizations are too vague to promote any understanding on the roots of immigration, or to sustain any effort to reverse this trend.

I was just wondering what Portugal's colonial past has to do with Manji's opinions, surely he is allowed to form his opinions regardless? You were attacking his opinion because of his country's colonial past. That I don't quite understand. It seemed that you were saying, that Manji's opinion is invalid because Portugal has been a colonial power in the past.

As for home-grown parasites, I think there are enough of them, no need to get them all the way from Africa. And your comment on Jews, Irish and Italians just passed me by, I didn't quite understand how it is relevant. Are you saying, that for using the term 'social parasite', I have shown myself incapable of "understanding the roots of immigration, or to sustain any effort to reverse this trend?"

Or do you believe that we've reached the point that we should get some machettes and AK-47's and "wash the filth from our streets" ?

Not quite yet. :wink:

[Carach]

islamists, they pop up everywhere..

[Kanaric]

Fact: Nobody cares AT ALL about africa. If they did we would be in Sudan right now.

[Redfoxx]

Fact: Nobody cares AT ALL about africa. If they did we would be in Sudan right now.

you know whats realllllllly sad about this post........its true

[Jesus The Inane]

So Civilians should not flee from war zones???
Is that what you both want to say...

I had in mind Mexico. They aren't in war, but sure as hell immigrate. Does such immigration truly help the country(Mexico), no.

And if your city is a war zone, then you should move to a nearby city, not to a nearby country.

I always find it interesting how running from something is considered bad, whereas running to something (say if you're offered a high paying job in another country) is perfectly acceptable. It's not like the drain doesn't work both ways. Unskilled workers go, skilled workers come.

I would say such a thing is wrong. You should never leave your country (Unless on vacations).

[Rhah]

Well, at the risk of this turning into another anti-immigrant thread, here's an update on my original post

Somali leader slams US on War on terror

The US is funding a coalition of Somali warlords who earlier this year battled Islamic groups in Mogadishu, Somali President Abdullahi Yusuf has said.
Mr Yusuf's spokesman said the funding was fuelling Somalia's civil war.

At least 70 people were killed in the worst violence seen in the Somali capital for several years, when the two groups clashed in March.

US officials refused to comment directly but one said they did not want terror to take root in the region.

Things like this are the exact reason why the US is hated throughout much of the world.

(is that meant to be some sort of dandruff related smiley or something?)

[danzig]

Well, at the risk of this turning into another anti-immigrant thread, here's an update on my original post

Somali leader slams US on War on terror



Things like this are the exact reason why the US is hated throughout much of the world.

(is that meant to be some sort of dandruff related smiley or something?)

Bad example because Somalia has been overrun by warlords for quite some time now and a violent place and when US/UN attempted to provide food and order by capturing rogue warlords it led to deaths of 19 US soldier (*cough* Black Hawk Down). While not a perfect solution better then letting Somalia become an fanatical Islamic state.

[Gaius Baltar]

Yet, when the US tried to feed the starving population of Somolia, well, what happened then.

Or, the hundreds of millions in aid originating from the US for the tsunmai survivors.

Or, the hundreds of millions going for food and medicine to the people of Africa (AIDS relief etc.),

I wonder if hatedred of the US is simply ideological, and our real contribution to the world is simply overlooked.