Keep the America's or no?

[Dave Scarface]

Hey guys, as some of you may have already heard I have returned to work on KGCM patch 4.3. First and foremost my goal was to simply improve what was already in the mod and add 1 more Kingdoms faction (Novgorod) as well. However lately I have been thinking of the idea more and more to cut the Americas out of the map entirely and expand the map east a bit instead. This would obviously mean that the Aztecs would no longer feature in KGCM and instead I would bring back the Timurids. Now this may sound all well and good but I want to check with my community first before I go ahead and make such big changes. What do you the fans want in regard to this question?

Please keep the discussion to the Americas only. I am not interested in other ideas for KGCM patch 4.3 in this thread. If you want to support the inclusion of the Americas in KGCM then feel welcome to voice your opinion on why you think the Americas should not be sacrificed. I am not really over biased towards removing the America's at this point. I am merely considering whats best for the mod. I look forward to hearing the thoughts of the community.

Dave

[invicta]

From a pure gameplay (specifically Hotseating ) point of view I'd keep America.
Although the idea is highly debatable (there are valid pros and cons), my thought goes to weak factions as Portugal and Ireland that with America
have still an opportunity for easy expansion and trading rich resources, and a way to survive if things got very bad in their homelands.
But I understand too that being mainly a AI faction, at the same time is a bit a waste of regions and faction slot to keep it.

Timurids might be an interesting faction to play ,personally to be honest I don't like to idea of extending further the map to east, as I guess there will be added mostly regions with not ports so it'll be slow and difficult to move troops (as already it when moving mongols troops from Bulgar to Moscow or even further.

[Gato The Great]

I will have remove the americas not even the aztecs attack europe and bring those elephants back I miss Dearly for expanding east i would be happy since it would make sense to mmake timurids playable

[TWWolfe]

I'm in favor of keeping the Americas. With merchants on the resources you can find there, it does make it easy for the smaller atlantic nations to prosper.

[Nefarious]

Just a thought, Dave: Some people's faction preference may dictate their input. Maybe not. A relatively small number of players spread their preferences across the range of factions, thus most pick 2-3 and stick with those for years.
By that I mean...

1. Someone who mostly plays Crusader or Muslim factions would probably welcome the elimination of Americas . More expansion and rival factions Eastward could add to/change gameplay for the better.
2. A player who has an affinity for Jinetes would likely wish the Americas to remain. Those overseas provinces are like a wallet in an Iberian's back pocket.
3. Eastern European faction players would, I asume, like to spread East or North. The Americas hold little strategic/gameplay interest.
4. Western European players: This depends on the player. Some may wish to eventually sail West, so keeping the Americas would make sense. Others, however, stay in Europe and Scandinavia. They may enjoy the inclusion of Novgorod, perhaps even Sweden, allowing the Americas to go the way of the Dodo.

Personally...I play a bit of each type faction yet have preferences.
1. As the Moors, I rarely sail West. I like to control Iberia and would welcome a Timurid threat from the East.
2. As Sicily, I rule the Med...and the peninsula, and North Africa...and...Aargh!!! Love those guys! But we never pass the Pillars of Hercules.
3. As the Scots/Irish/Danes, I never sail West. Never. My preference is to control the isles and Scandinavia. Sweden would be a welcomed distraction.
4. As Kievan Rus/Teutonic Order, bring on Novgorod! The elimination of the Americas for the inclusion of Novgorod would add to both factions' gameplay for me.

Overall, my personal preference is to see the Americas eliminated. More of my factions would benefit from your additions than would be hurt by the Americas exclusion. If this allows for expansion East, great. If it could allow for expansion East and slightly North (Sweden as a faction) all the better. My Western/Eastern European factions would enjoy that. My Moors, also, would replace their occasional overseas expansion with aggressive inroads to the East.

And Dave, please note that whatever you decide is fine. It's considerate for you to request input of this sort but make the changes as you wish.
If I like them, I will download. If not, I'll keep playing my already-well-tweaked KGCM/HHB.
No worries.

[Scotius]

I don't care for the Aztecs. It is a bit of an immersion killer when Aztec fleets appear in the English Channel or the Baltic sea. Sweden would be welcomed by many of the Scandinavian players although I am not sure what they would bring to the table that the Danes//Norges already do. Either way you decide, I am sure it will be fine =)

[Dave Scarface]

Timurids might be an interesting faction to play ,personally to be honest I don't like to idea of extending further the map to east, as I guess there will be added mostly regions with not ports so it'll be slow and difficult to move troops (as already it when moving mongols troops from Bulgar to Moscow or even further.

Here is a picture below of the KGCM patch 4.3 mini map as it stands now. The arrows in the bottom left show the length of map we would gain by removing the America's.

As you can see its not a lot, and we are not talking about that many regions being added in the east.

I will have remove the americas not even the aztecs attack europe and bring those elephants back I miss Dearly for expanding east i would be happy since it would make sense to mmake timurids playable

The Timurids have already been brought back in HHB, but they are not playable. If I bring the Timurids back in KGCM 4.3 as well, should they appear as a horde? or be present as a playable faction from the start do you think?

Overall, my personal preference is to see the Americas eliminated. More of my factions would benefit from your additions than would be hurt by the Americas exclusion. If this allows for expansion East, great. If it could allow for expansion East and slightly North (Sweden as a faction) all the better. My Western/Eastern European factions would enjoy that. My Moors, also, would replace their occasional overseas expansion with aggressive inroads to the East.

And Dave, please note that whatever you decide is fine. It's considerate for you to request input of this sort but make the changes as you wish.
If I like them, I will download. If not, I'll keep playing my already-well-tweaked KGCM/HHB.
No worries.

I could just decide for myself that I dont want the America's and go ahead and remove them and change the map as I want it. But that is not how I have worked on KGCM in the past. I have often involved the community when making big decisions in the past. For example a few years ago I was considering having just 1 Crusader faction instead of 2 and getting rid of Antioch. But the response I got from the community was clear. People love playing Antioch in the Grand Campaign and were not in favour of this change. I want to be sure that I am doing the right thing as far as the fans are concerned. How much do people like having the America's and the extra trade revenues they provide? How popular are the Aztecs? And do people like to make them playable? Ultimately I know that I must make the final decision myself, but feedback will certainly help me a lot.

Dave

[invicta]

Here is a picture below of the KGCM patch 4.3 mini map as it stands now. The arrows in the bottom left show the length of map we would gain by removing the America's.

As you can see its not a lot, and we are not talking about that many regions being added in the east.

I see, it's not much.
From an historical point of view I think it would be better to have them as horde as they came after 1370.
Are you going to keep the same starting date?

[AugustusCaeser]

i think you should remove america tht way you could add more regions in the east. btw is it possible for you to extend the map into afghanistan mabye even into western pakistan if thts possible at all because some mods for rtw have map tht go from ireland all the way to western pakistan. i would love to see that and i think the timurids should be a playable factions instead of a horde.

[Dave Scarface]

@Rubicon Decision,

I am not keeping the America's, I explained above that I think it is better to remove the New World entirely and the Aztecs along with it as well. The Timurids as I said will be replacing the Aztecs.

So is america removed from the mod?

Yep, already done the first part, removing the Aztecs and the America's was easier than I thought.

i think you should remove america tht way you could add more regions in the east. btw is it possible for you to extend the map into afghanistan mabye even into western pakistan if thts possible at all because some mods for rtw have map tht go from ireland all the way to western pakistan.

The new campaign map will definately not extend as far east as Afghanistan and Western Pakistan. The map is too big and can't be stretched that far east. The only way I could manage that would be to cut a large chunk of land away from Western Africa. And that would be wrong because I already removed the America's, and cutting regions south of Spain in Africa is not an option. It would take an entire new map to be made from scratch to include these regions. And I am only adding 1 more middle eastern faction (Timurids), so not worth it. There definately won't be anymore factions added to KGCM patch 4.3. Just Novgorod and the Timurids that will be all. The new extended map will likely extend to Kazakhstan in the north and include all of the Caspian sea, and a bit of Turkmenistan, and may reach near to Oman in the south, I will see what is possible.

Dave

[b22]

I would say can the Americas and go further east. Timurds would be nice as a horde, it made the game more interesting in vanilla, when you had several stacks of mongols and timurds show up randomly for some huge battles; but I'd be happy either way. Would like to see the Kwazarem Empire added as another Islamic power if you decide to go further east.

[Messremb]

Wouldn't those chances mean an entire redo of the map and a vast amount of work?
I personally think Americas should be kept, if only for the wackiness of seeing the Cherokee conquer Africa and whatnot, the sense of achievement when your western empire conquers the Americas as well, but they are way stranded and taking out quite a bit of space.
But the same thing rather applies to the East as well- large swaths of land or desert only sprinkled with cities and the Timurids would be isolated between that vastness and a small number of surrounding neighbors. Much more fun throwing them in a crowded mix and see what shakes. I would much like a way to bring distant factions more easily into conflict- often Novgorod never faces longbows or fights the Moorish camels and such.
The entire south of the map is also somewhat taken out of the game, rather drawing the surrounding factions from the conflicts for their conquest.
And if you start to consider new factions (Sweden was mentioned) I suggest Georgia- bring a damper to the Mongols and Turks a bit and heroic play as an outnumbered small state; or Arragon as a thorn everybody's side in the south west; the land of Sweden is a needed breathing space for the six factions crowding the area.
In short, I think a zoom in would be better than a zoom out.

[Dave Scarface]

I see, it's not much.
From an historical point of view I think it would be better to have them as horde as they came after 1370.
Are you going to keep the same starting date?

I know this would be difficult from a historical point of view, but I think the Timurids must start as a playable faction or we don't do this at all. Because if the Timurids only appear as a horde late game then the payoff for these huge changes are clearly not worth it. In my own view getting rid of the America's just to have a few more rebel regions in the east will not improve the mod greatly, and for some taking out the America's might even be a step backwards. On the other hand, these map changes would be very good for the addition of the Timurids as a playable faction.

I am also happy with the current start date of the campaign at 1180 AD. And I dont think moving this date forwards just to better acommodate 1 faction (the Timurids) would be a smart move. Remember that the mod has many historical faction leaders such as Saladin, Richard the Lionheart, etc. And I do not want to get rid of those. So really there are a few choices to be made. Do we keep the America's or get rid of them? Also, do we further compromise the historical accurracy of KGCM so that we can add the Timurids in at 1180 AD? Remembering that the Teutonic Order are already an example of a faction starting out much earlier than they were supposed to historically. I think most fans will agree, making TO a playable faction was worth the pay off for losing some historical accuracy. The Timurids are a faction that appear much later though of course.

[Lord Minotaur]

i say Elimination, but dont add timurids add something else.

[Dominick]

Hard... choice... Gharr... Could we keep the Americas, delete the Aztecs, cut the huge African/Arabian southern regions, expand to East and add Timurids? That would be fawesome! You would save 6 regions that are pretty much outback and mainly only the Arab factions use them.

No... Wait... There's 29 factions, with Timurids 30, there's even space for ANOTHER faction, dayumn, keep the Aztecs!

[Dave Scarface]

i say Elimination, but dont add timurids add something else.

No new factions, this is a vanilla based mod. You get new factions in HHB

Hard... choice... Gharr... Could we keep the Americas, delete the Aztecs, cut the huge African/Arabian southern regions, expand to East and add Timurids? That would be fawesome! You would save 6 regions that are pretty much outback and mainly only the Arab factions use them.

But it doesn't work like that I am afraid, the map is already at its maximum length. Cutting the south out will not mean we can expand further east. There is only 1 single way to expand east a bit and that is the removal of the America's.

I think I will leave this thread open for at least another week. I am in no rush to make a final decision yet.

Dave

[Dominick]

No new factions, this is a vanilla based mod. You get new factions in HHB



But it doesn't work like that I am afraid, the map is already at its maximum length. Cutting the south out will not mean we can expand further east. There is only 1 single way to expand east a bit and that is the removal of the America's.

I think I will leave this thread open for at least another week. I am in no rush to make a final decision yet.

Dave

Oh, okay, thanks for the explanation, but if you reached the region limit then it can be useful to cut Africa.

[Dominick]

Oh, okay, thanks for the explanation, but if you reached the region limit then it can be useful to cut Africa.

You may even add regions further north? So Norway and Novgorod have more regions to contest for.

[Scotius]

Flanders are a brilliant faction in HHB for halting (or at least slowing down) the French ascent to becoming a super power. Maybe the Kingdom of Bohemia would work similarly with the HRE?

[Gato The Great]

really who plays the aztecs in the grand campaing