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    Default Questions about Epistemology (long quote)

    Friends ,

    I am not here to rail against anyone or be contumelious. Some opinions are needed, so my mind can be broadened - and perhaps your own, too! I'm wondering what you metaphysics-lovers and epistemology-nerds think of the following introduction to Aristotelian/Thomistic first principles. Only read this if you really, really care about truth, knowledge, and reason.

    M.C. d'Arcy, S.J. : St. Thomas Aquinas, 1930, Oxford

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The views of Thomas on knowledge differ from those of many modern philosophers, in that he did not consider a critique of it indispensable at the beginning. Idealism had not been born, and not until Descartes do we find the method of doubt employed. Like other thinkers of his time, he accepted experience, the world, and a distinction between thought and that world. Fortunately we are able, however, to find scattered about his writings enough data to formulate a theory in answer to modern questions.

    He admits that we should begin with doubt. "As that science (metaphysics) is concerned with the general consideration of truth, therefore to it also belongs general doubt about truth"*. But this doubt is not the same as that of Descartes. The latter professed to doubt about all, until he discovered one truth which would defy skepticism (cogito; ergo, sum). Thomas means only that we ought to test everything, even the first principles, to see if they are true. He does not hold that there is only one 'first indubitable truth'; there are many truths, and it is impossible to doubt them or suspend our judgment while searching for some more ultimate truth.

    One amongst such truths is that we know reality. He belongs, therefore, to what is called the dogmatist tradition of philosophy, and he holds in one sense that the so-called problem of knowledge is a false problem. Knowledge cannot be justified by anything else save knowledge, and in its act it possesses its own justification. From this position he proceeds to realism, and this, once established, he builds thereon his whole metaphysic. His argument is in the Aristotelian mold. It is of the very nature of the intellect to know the real. The object (goal) of knowledge cannot be a creation of the mind nor just a subjective representation; to suppose the latter is to deny the objective validity of the sciences and, what is decisive, to deny the principle of contradiction.

    If what I think at the present moment is wholly relative to me, then what my friend is thinking of may be the precise contradictory of it and yet equally true. Thus a certain form of realism is given as self-evident in the act of knowledge, and this can be shown by a reductio ad absurdum of any other standpoint. But it may be urged that what so far has been established is very little. A sceptic might deny the principles of contradiction and identity, and even granted their truth, they do not take us beyond the position of, for instance, Kant.

    Validity in thought is consistent with almost any system of philosophy: idealist, subjectivist, as well as realist. St. Thomas has little difficulty in disposing of universal scepticism. He shows that we are forced to affirm; and whether we affirm knowledge or scepticism, or try to withhold judgment, we are making a statement about what is and what can be, and in that statement the first principles are necessarily applied. Nor, again, can these principles be laws of the mind and not of reality. Quite apart from the fact that, as someone has written, they 'declare not only an unthinkableness, but an impossibility', it can be shown that for the principle of contradiction to be true in the mind, it must also be true for reality. The reason is this: that if once I conceive of the possibility that there is a reality in which circles might be square, appearances not appearing, thinking not thinking, then even my own thought also may be possibly contradictory, and that is skepticism once more.

    The principle of contradiction and knowledge of reality, therefore, go together. Usually Thomas does not bother with arguing this. No one, he says, 'can assent to the thought that he does not exist; for, in the very act of thinking, he perceives that he exists'. For him, the whole problem is concerned with this being which is revealed to thought, and though he has much to say on the nature of our knowledge, his views are as much dictated by metaphysical principles as by an analysis of the act of knowing.

    In every affirmation, we affirm something; it is a declaration about the nature of reality, about what is or can be or cannot be; again, in every judgment the truth of the principle of identity or contradiction is also affirmed. In every judgment we can at least say, of any object before the mind, that it has being; it is not nothing and is identical with itself. Even what we commonly call nothing must be in some sense, and fall under the law of identity, and so be only relatively nothing. 'It is impossible that nothing could have ever existed'.

    What we know first and always is being; in a vague, and confused way at first, and then more determinately, but never as anything other than being. To illustrate at the moment St. Thomas' theory of knowledge, however, it is worth pointing out how he speaks in an equivalent way of the certainty of truth, being, and first principles in pithy sayings, such as: 'The existence of truth, in general, is self-evident; that which the intellect conceives the first being, as it were, is very well known'.


    PAGES 57-59, third edition.

    So, if any of you scientific, philosophical agnostics read all this rigorously, do you have an opinion? Is he/Thomas/Aristotle wrong? Why?
    Last edited by Monarchist; July 23, 2011 at 07:19 PM.
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    Tankbuster's Avatar Analogy Nazi
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    Default Re: Questions about Epistemology (long quote)

    There are some points I could quibble over, certainly.

    My main objection is simply is that he would have benefited from actually being aware of Descartes' Evil Demon. He doesn't seem to specifically address that concern (which is central to, for instance, epistemological solipsism) and as a result he seems to be jumping very quickly between the idea that we know that our brain cannot be all that exists (we know that reality exists) to the idea that we now know that we can accurately perceive reality (we know reality).

    That seems an important point that's left unaddressed -at least explicitly.
    Other than that I think much of it is fine.
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    Default Re: Questions about Epistemology (long quote)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tankbuster View Post
    There are some points I could quibble over, certainly.

    My main objection is simply is that he would have benefited from actually being aware of Descartes' Evil Demon. He doesn't seem to specifically address that concern (which is central to, for instance, epistemological solipsism) and as a result he seems to be jumping very quickly between the idea that we know that our brain cannot be all that exists (we know that reality exists) to the idea that we now know that we can accurately perceive reality (we know reality).

    That seems an important point that's left unaddressed -at least explicitly.
    Other than that I think much of it is fine.
    I agree with the points Tankbuster mentioned.

    St. Thomas had not addressed the possibility of an 'illusory/false' reality, which is a focal point of philosophical realism's counterargument of solipsism. (At least from what I've read in your quote; it is entirely possible that he covers this issue but it was not discussed in the quoted work.) Otherwise, his arguments supporting realism hold true.

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    Default Re: Questions about Epistemology (long quote)

    I have a great deal of respect for Aquinas. He is mentioned throughout Objectivist writings and speeches as the one who washed away the taint of Augustine/Plato and returned Aristotle to his rightful place as the intellectual leader of the West.

    His metaphysics and ethics are very good for a Catholic theologian. Rand claimed that she had a great deal of respect for "one and a half philosophers", and by that she meant Aristotle and Aquinas (as the half.) Reading Rand's works you can see a very clear Thomist influence. The most potent example would be the conception of the human as an integrated being of body and soul, rather than the two being split (a point that John Galt hammers away on in his speech.)

    But, of course, his primary value is as an epistemologist, and it's precisely in this kind of defense against skepticism that his influence shines through the most brightly.

    This post is simply a thumbs up from a fellow member of the "dogmatic school".
    Last edited by Justice and Mercy; July 24, 2011 at 10:11 PM.
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    Default Re: Questions about Epistemology (long quote)

    [side glance]Hello, Monny![/side glance]



    I should admit, that although I must diverge with Aquinas on many grounds, and I can not really endorse his Rationalism as overall of being a benefit to the rich ground of Christian metaphysics, nonetheless I ought to pay my deepest respects. Thomas' system is the main key and main instrument of those who seek an alternative to the innerly rotten core of modern philosophies, of positivism, and of similarly morbid things. As mentioned, Aquinas' concept of human dignity and of the person is a typical exposition of classical metaphysics and stands contrary to the philosophies of modernity, with their utilitarianism, and their tendency towards a chaotic atomistic individualism coupled with the reduction of human dignity to that of a replenishable cog wheel and a mindless economic animal .

    I reckon, though, that although Aquinas is great, he is surpassed as Grand Metaphysician by many others, Christian or not. Oh and did I say that Duns Scotus was better than him?
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

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    Default Re: Questions about Epistemology (long quote)

    Jean de la Valette, your solidifying my doubts that you know what "rationalism" means.

    "Rationalism" includes men like Socrates, Descartes, Spinoza, Leibnez, Kant, Hegel, etc.

    Unlike these men, Aquinas believed in the epistemological validity of sense perception (through implication).
    Last edited by Justice and Mercy; July 24, 2011 at 10:43 PM.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Default Re: Questions about Epistemology (long quote)

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    Jean de la Valette, your solidifying my doubts that you know what "rationalism" means.

    "Rationalism" includes men like Socrates, Descartes, Spinoza, Leibnez, Kant, Hegel, etc.

    Unlike these men, Aquinas believed in the epistemological validity of sense perception (through implication).
    There are different sorts of rationalism.

    Descartes, for instance, follows the Nominalistic (Ockhamist) idea of what sense perception constitutes, which is radically different from the Aristotelian/Peripatetic idea endorsed by Aquinas, this one essentially constituting a compromise between Absolute Realism and Nominalism.

    Still, both of them had an inherent confidence in the capacity of the human mind to learn through a priori syllogisms, a fundamental aspect of rationalistic doctrine.

    EDIT - And this is also why Monny's quote above about Platonism resembling Kantism is nonsensical and reveals an incomprehension of both systems at their fundamental roots.
    Last edited by Marie Louise von Preussen; July 24, 2011 at 11:04 PM.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Default Re: Questions about Epistemology (long quote)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jean de la Valette View Post
    There are different sorts of rationalism.
    Yes, but it still means something in particular, and it doesn't apply to Aquinas.

    Still, both of them had an inherent confidence in the capacity of the human mind to learn through a priori syllogisms, a fundamental aspect of rationalistic doctrine.
    Not necessarily, since rationalism concerns itself with the source of knowledge, and I don't know of Aquinas believing in "a priori" knowledge in that sense.

    EDIT - And this is also why Monny's quote above about Platonism resembling Kantism is nonsensical and reveals an incomprehension of both systems at their fundamental roots.
    Quite the opposite. Plato's Allegory of the Cave demonstrates a grasp of epistemology very much like the kind that Kant espouses.

    Kant is simply the craftiest Platonist.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Default Re: Questions about Epistemology (long quote)

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    Yes, but it still means something in particular, and it doesn't apply to Aquinas.
    You must know better than my philosophy professors then. As they all classified Aquinas as a rationalist theologian. Which he was, for the reasons Sig outlined above. In sharp contrast to him, consider St. Bernard aswell as Bonaventure who believed that metaphysics could not be practiced without scripture as a basis.

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    Default Re: Questions about Epistemology (long quote)

    The word "Rationalist" is being used differently. Jean means Rationalism in the generic way of philosophers who laid stress on reason for the discovery of truth (thus Aquinas was one). J&M means Rationalism in the narrow sense of the 17th century school of philosophers (Descartes) who put emphasis on reason at the expense of the senses; viz. the rationalist-empiricist divide; under which Aquinas is not a rationalist.


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    Default Re: Questions about Epistemology (long quote)

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    The word "Rationalist" is being used differently. Jean means Rationalism in the generic way of philosophers who laid stress on reason for the discovery of truth (thus Aquinas was one). J&M means Rationalism in the narrow sense of the 17th century school of philosophers (Descartes) who put emphasis on reason at the expense of the senses; viz. the rationalist-empiricist divide; under which Aquinas is not a rationalist.
    So we're using the same word, in the same context (discussions of philosophy), and using two different meanings?

    That's a bit of an issue, no?

    We should obviously stick to the strict sense.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  12. #12

    Default Re: Questions about Epistemology (long quote)

    Quite the opposite. Plato's Allegory of the Cave demonstrates a grasp of epistemology very much like the kind that Kant espouses.
    I wouldn't call Kant strictly a "rationalist", he was technically a transcendental idealist.

    The Cave is supposed to highlight the importance of seeking for higher, philosophical truths. Plato considered the material world as being a mere shade of the true reality of the Forms. Kant meanwhile rejected empiricism and rationalism. A priori truths are essentially tautological and thus give us no further knowledge, empiricism is inadequate because Kant rejected the notion that the mind is a tabula rasa upon which ideas are imprinted throughout life (some concepts are inherent within us such that they enable us to impose our spatial awareness on certain subjects such as geometry).

    Kant did study rationalists as a student and was largely concerned with them but Hume awoke him from his "dogmatic slumber" and goaded him into action to help find a solution for the "scandal to philosophy", that it cannot satisfactorily provide an answer to skeptics such as Hume.

    That's very basic and I could go on but it would derail this thread which is primarily about Aquinas' epistemological views.
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