Map Blog 3 - PSFs (8th Entry - PSF Script)

[Hydro]

Italy looks hot, good job.

[Horseless Nomad]

As I understand it the PSF's are going to represent a whole bunch of things from major cities, to important castles, villages and strategic points on the map. Will the towns/cities/castles etc be developed to the point that they were in 1080ce? If yes will they change over time, or is this impossible? I understand some of these places were chosen based on the fact they became important during the first 100-150 years of the mods time frame.

Is it possible to script the game so that some places will develop as they did in real life? Of course this brings up the dilemma that the conditions leading to this development might not be brought about eh? Personally though I think it would be weirder for places not to develop at all but I'd love to hear some points to the contrary!

Thoughts team?

[Giorgios]

Will the towns/cities/castles etc be developed to the point that they were in 1080ce? If yes will they change over time, or is this impossible? I understand some of these places were chosen based on the fact they became important during the first 100-150 years of the mods time frame.

I don't think it's possible. As I was the guy largely in charge of setting sizes and appearances for the PSFs, I can tell you they'll generally be at their "average" size for the twelfth and thirteenth centuries.

[spanish_emperor]

What evidence is there to prove the HRE COA had that red and white cross? Wiki says it was used from 1200 to around 1300 but i would like to see what sources DotS team has. I've looked at manuscripts and paintings which show the HRE imperial banner.

[JohnMilburn666]

Hey guys, first of all great work, i'm a big fan of this mod and cant wait for it to come out, the PSF look great, a real challenge to conquer. However, i'm a bit confused over you'r choice of place names for England. Lundenwic, Norwic and Eorfowic are all Anglo-Saxon names, in the case of Eorforwic (York), that name had already been replaced by Jorvik by the 10th century. The Mod starts in 1080, 14 years into the Norman regime, yet you still use the old place names, these would still have been used by the Saxon peasants obviously, but not by the Norman ruling class. What confuses me then is why you'r using terms which the ruling class and official documents wouldn't have used, when it was my understanding that as 'the player' in total war games, you play as some form of omnipresent member of the ruling class.

[Cae]

Hey guys, first of all great work, i'm a big fan of this mod and cant wait for it to come out, the PSF look great, a real challenge to conquer. However, i'm a bit confused over you'r choice of place names for England. Lundenwic, Norwic and Eorfowic are all Anglo-Saxon names, in the case of Eorforwic (York), that name had already been replaced by Jorvik by the 10th century. The Mod starts in 1080, 14 years into the Norman regime, yet you still use the old place names, these would still have been used by the Saxon peasants obviously, but not by the Norman ruling class. What confuses me then is why you'r using terms which the ruling class and official documents wouldn't have used, when it was my understanding that as 'the player' in total war games, you play as some form of omnipresent member of the ruling class.

We are one of the oppressors. But communist ideology aside, you would be right in that saying. I never noticed it, but usually they said that they would use the ruling titles. So yes, that is odd.

[mynameisowen]

We are one of the oppressors. But communist ideology aside, you would be right in that saying. I never noticed it, but usually they said that they would use the ruling titles. So yes, that is odd.

I was under the assumption that most of the place names will change, at least when new people conquer them, but also through the ages (hopefully anyway).

[Cae]

Yeah, they were supposed to change.

[Deutschland]

Lol this north italy is the biggest mess i have ever seen. I doubt that the AI will be able to crack it ever.

[Silesian_Noble]

Lol this north italy is the biggest mess i have ever seen. I doubt that the AI will be able to crack it ever.

Exactly DotS have tons of great features and realizm and my only concern is that the enormous number of PSFs feature will spoil all that greatness and make it in fact unplayable for most of the players. There will certainly appear a good fellow who will make a 'less PSFs submod' (which technicly will be really easy to do) and here is another concern of mine - the DotS policy about submods is very strict and I'm afraid they may forbid releasing such sub mod as beyond realism from their point of view.... Though I really hope I'm wrong this time.

[Slaytaninc]

Lol this north italy is the biggest mess i have ever seen. I doubt that the AI will be able to crack it ever.

I think that's intentional.

[Resurrection]

As for the names, we have always said that they will be in vernacular local languages and explicitly NOT the ruling class. Ownership changed often while the population and its language rarely. This is because region names cannot be changed during the campaign. The settlement names will change based on time and ownership. The timeline for York is this:

Eorforwic (1080) / Yorwic (1230) / Yorwik (1300) / York (1340) /

IIRC the Yorwic->York line is actually a Norman/Viking line while Eorforwic is a Anglo-Saxon name. They "unified" over the course of our timeframe as the Middle English emerged but it was not until 13th century when that language started to dominate over French in upper class. We have even considered making names etc. for England in French because quite a large portion of our timeframe it was their main language (official was Latin of course) and it would still be historically accurate. We have in the end chosen a compromise because we don't know the exact French they used (hardly Ile-de-France one) and to distinguish them from France. But there will be traces in names, titles etc. Anyway, notice that the name York prevailed only in about half of 14th century among the population!


As for the number of PSFs and that AI will never be able to crack Italy. Well as Slaytaninc said it is intentional and I certainly hope so neither AI nor player will be able to crack it. The regions there will be very wealthy and owning one or two will give you great benefits. Owning more or all of them will be very difficult though and not only because of the PSFs. In reality Italy was "cracked" only in 1861 so I don't see it as a problem if it will be impossible to crack in DotS. As was said many times this game is about recreating the history but in DotS within historical framework because for wild different courses of action there will be (and cannot be) simply no (any) content. That does not mean you still cannot take Spain as England and you will still be able to get the titles associated with Spain (like King of Iberia and somesuch) but it won't help you develop your faction towards its transition and new unlockable units/tech-trees/titles etc. For that you will have to satisfy historically set conditions (like owning certain regions, having high enough stats of your FL etc.). After all we believe that there are plenty of freeform mods out there so that different approach and gameplay is in order. And historical mod was most appealing for us - modders of DotS - as we hope will be for you the players.


And lastly for the submods. As much as we would love to incorporate every sub-mod idea we will see fit into the mod (as Hross said on few occasions) it won't be possible most likely. However the condition for any sub-mod to be historically accurate will be firm and permissions will have to be obtained to release them. We haven't spent years on one of most historically accurate mods ever created to have the legions of sub-modders tear it apart on their whim. I understand the frustration some of you may feel from the number of PSFs. Others from the vernacular names and yet others from missing wanna-be-historical-fantasy-unit. But then again, that's the frigging point of DotS! To give you the historical feel and same frustration as the contemporary rulers had in their faction and in certain places. Do you think that nobody ever wanted to conquer Italy in Middle Ages? Or that were able to erase Anglo-Saxon names in a decade? And I could go on. The answer is 'no' in every particular and the challenge DotS offer you to exceed the history and write your own despite all the recreated difficulties. Many of us I am sure though will simply enjoy the game playing "historically" as was always my main goal and the reason I devoted to this project in the first place - to see the historical game anachronisms-free and historically accurate (as much as possible anyway).

[Mighty_Matt]

The regions there will be very wealthy and owning one or two will give you great benefits. Owning more or all of them will be very difficult though and not only because of the PSFs.

This is very good

It always seemed to me that, on a map, states like Sicily and even more so Venice were very small (though i'm aware of the Guiscards having some land in Lombardy) and they had a go at the Byzantine Empire!

I presumed from this that italy must be heavily populated and the mercentile italian states extremely wealthy, this is backed up by what little history i know of medieval italy.


Also i like the Vernacular names!

[mynameisowen]

(though i'm aware of the Guiscards having some land in Lombardy) and they had a go at the Byzantine Empire!

SCUM!

[Cyprian2]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

As for the names, we have always said that they will be in vernacular local languages and explicitly NOT the ruling class. Ownership changed often while the population and its language rarely. This is because region names cannot be changed during the campaign. The settlement names will change based on time and ownership. The timeline for York is this:

Eorforwic (1080) / Yorwic (1230) / Yorwik (1300) / York (1340) /

IIRC the Yorwic->York line is actually a Norman/Viking line while Eorforwic is a Anglo-Saxon name. They "unified" over the course of our timeframe as the Middle English emerged but it was not until 13th century when that language started to dominate over French in upper class. We have even considered making names etc. for England in French because quite a large portion of our timeframe it was their main language (official was Latin of course) and it would still be historically accurate. We have in the end chosen a compromise because we don't know the exact French they used (hardly Ile-de-France one) and to distinguish them from France. But there will be traces in names, titles etc. Anyway, notice that the name York prevailed only in about half of 14th century among the population!


As for the number of PSFs and that AI will never be able to crack Italy. Well as Slaytaninc said it is intentional and I certainly hope so neither AI nor player will be able to crack it. The regions there will be very wealthy and owning one or two will give you great benefits. Owning more or all of them will be very difficult though and not only because of the PSFs. In reality Italy was "cracked" only in 1861 so I don't see it as a problem if it will be impossible to crack in DotS. As was said many times this game is about recreating the history but in DotS within historical framework because for wild different courses of action there will be (and cannot be) simply no (any) content. That does not mean you still cannot take Spain as England and you will still be able to get the titles associated with Spain (like King of Iberia and somesuch) but it won't help you develop your faction towards its transition and new unlockable units/tech-trees/titles etc. For that you will have to satisfy historically set conditions (like owning certain regions, having high enough stats of your FL etc.). After all we believe that there are plenty of freeform mods out there so that different approach and gameplay is in order. And historical mod was most appealing for us - modders of DotS - as we hope will be for you the players.


And lastly for the submods. As much as we would love to incorporate every sub-mod idea we will see fit into the mod (as Hross said on few occasions) it won't be possible most likely. However the condition for any sub-mod to be historically accurate will be firm and permissions will have to be obtained to release them. We haven't spent years on one of most historically accurate mods ever created to have the legions of sub-modders tear it apart on their whim. I understand the frustration some of you may feel from the number of PSFs. Others from the vernacular names and yet others from missing wanna-be-historical-fantasy-unit. But then again, that's the frigging point of DotS! To give you the historical feel and same frustration as the contemporary rulers had in their faction and in certain places. Do you think that nobody ever wanted to conquer Italy in Middle Ages? Or that were able to erase Anglo-Saxon names in a decade? And I could go on. The answer is 'no' in every particular and the challenge DotS offer you to exceed the history and write your own despite all the recreated difficulties. Many of us I am sure though will simply enjoy the game playing "historically" as was always my main goal and the reason I devoted to this project in the first place - to see the historical game anachronisms-free and historically accurate (as much as possible anyway).

This post reminds me why, for the past two years, I've checked this forum almost every day; now I'm even more convinced that DotS will be the greatest historical mod ever seen. Thanks! +rep

[JohnMilburn666]

In regards to the place names, fair enough, as its local language you'r using to name the settlements then it makes sense.

[Perdicas]

as simulating the Almohad invasion? and how it start?. to conquer Toledo Castilla y Leon. Taifa kingdoms to be represented by rebels make the peninsula there is only Christian kingdoms

[Cyprian2]

as simulating the Almohad invasion? and how it start?. to conquer Toledo Castilla y Leon. Taifa kingdoms to be represented by rebels make the peninsula there is only Christian kingdoms

Hi, Perdicas. From what I've understood, there will be a game-script that will make some of the rebel cities go over to the Almohads (possibly when attacked by Christians?), which would give the Almohads a foothold in Iberia. But someone from the team will know better.

[Perdicas]

sorry for my bad english

[Stark1]

That post really made me happy. I am really looking forward at my attemts to clear some of those areas and feel a sense of real accomplishment. It's so much more realistic. My favorite faction are Byzantines, and it seems this game will really deliver the feeling of slow, methodic advance, similar to campaigns of Basil II. and Ioannes Komnenos. They fought for decades for something players in MTW2 can achieve in a few turns.

Now reclaiming Anatolia with Romans will really feel like a great victory.

Similar how HRE emperors endlessly tried to pacify Northern Italy but players can do that without trouble.