A sub-mod to make it more gamey?

**CrazyHarlequin** · July 23, 2011, 04:55 AM

While I love the production values put into TTA:TW, I actually struggle to play it and enjoy it. There is just a certain mindset that seems to be involved with the creation of this mod that is just at odds with how I enjoy a game.

I love the total war games and enjoy them without having to feel like I'm playing it 'wrong' by not playing VH/VH. In TTA:TW it feels like everything is designed to maximise an excessive amount of challenge. Sure, some people may enjoy the game for the feeling of accomplishment, but I just get frustrated when it feels like I can't actually win.

I love the uncertainty of how events proceed, the knowledge that if I manage to outwit the computer (not difficult, I admit) then I can hit one of their most important cities without a massive defense force. The excessive amount of money the computer gets and the free armies that show up just ruin this for me.

I love effectively crafting my own characters, watching individuals either become effective, skillful generals, or wallow in a pit of their own flaws. Having characters dictated to me, makes me feel like I'm not doing it right by preferring to use the general I've nursed into competence, rather than the mega-awesome character who has just been thrown at me.

Am I the only person who would prefer for a sub-mod for TTA:TW that feels like a game? I love fantasy archetypes (and subsequently their progenitor, Lord of the Rings), but it feels like the mod and every sub-mod I see is designed to make the game MORE like the books. If I wanted that, I'd just read the books, I'd love for it to feel more like a game.

Am I the only one who thinks this would be a great sub-mod to see?

I apologise for that rant, I just had to get it off my chest. I also apologise if I seem like I'm criticising the team, like I said I'm amazed by the quality of the mod itself, and rather than criticisms my words are intended to express a difference of opinion without suggesting there is anything inherently invalid in the way the team designed the mod. I also apologise for posting this thread without actually offering anything productive, instead putting up a more wordy version of the familiar tantrum "Someone gimme somethin' I want".

**Yonan** · July 23, 2011, 06:12 AM

It is hard to see what you think would make it more "gamey" other than less of a challenge - which is easy enough to sort yourself with a couple small tweaks to files to remove the garrison script and reduce AI income.

**Noobio** · July 23, 2011, 07:04 AM

it's considered a "rant" as you say, ONLY when it's not followed by an argumented proposal...anyway i hope you get what i'm trying to mean cause i don't get what you are

you should be more precise in what you would like to be changed...it may not be that difficult as Yonan hinted ...btw there's this other submod by "twists of cain" that actualy gives that more "gamish" flavor (as in more easily forming "warriors" vs "governors" generals...

other submods like "the beacons" or "galadriel's mirror" etc even though tend to make the game more close to lore are absolutely "gamish"

it's not that balck and white..it's a "mod" so there are many possibilities for customising the game to personal "gaming experience" preferences!

hope you get to find what you're looking for

**smoesville** · July 23, 2011, 07:33 AM

So you want a submod that:
Is easier due to no garrison/money scripts.
Build a general from scratch through combat and experiences
Not really sure how you want it to be more of a game.

Removing or toning down the scripts would be easy enough, though you might have problems rebalancing it. The generals? Well just pick a newly of age general and use him

As to the last i'm afraid you have really walked into a nest of nerds

where it's likely they are both LotR fanatics and hardcore TW players so most of the submods are to make the mod more and more like the books and more and more difficult, personally i'm putting in a Rangers of the North Faction even though it probably will crash and burn under ai control but hey, it's both lore accurate and cool and really difficult

Hope you find what you want though the easiest(quickest, it may not be easy

) way would be to attempt to make it yourself, if you hit any snags look through the forums (both here and in the mod workshops) and if you still can't figure it out, ask

(not me though because i probably won't know

)

**CrazyHarlequin** · July 23, 2011, 09:07 AM

Thanks for the gentle replies, there are plenty of communities that would have leapt upon some of my ill formed statements like a sea gull in the presence of an unguarded piece of fried potato.

If I had to make a list of what the ideal sub mod would contain (off the top of my head, there is no such list previously compiled) I'd do the following:

1. Severe reduction in the book established characters.
Action: Probably limit them to existing heads of state, and even then reduce their already existing traits severely. Maybe add a trait that limits the likelihood of them developing other traits (for example, I can't see the Witch King becoming an alcoholic), but that's about it.
Possible other actions: Severe reduction in 'special unit' generals, such as human generals who don't come in the standard heavy cavalry formation. While for some it just makes sense (the unmounted Orc general is a great idea for me, that really adds to the feeling of Mordor as a faction), in my view it would just simplify things.
Reasoning: As mentioned, for me the joy is in developing my own characters in game. While an obvious solution is to just use other generals, it does feel like I'm deliberately shooting myself in the foot when the computer is running around with 9-star generals right off the bat.

2. Removal of pre-scripted activities and actions.
Action: Removal of the slow build in available troop types (this is better simulated in the slow development of barracks, in my perspective). Removal of the Garrison script
Possible other actions: Severe lessening of the AI diplomatic predispositions. While it is very counter to the books for the glorious Wood Elves to enter into an alliance with filthy goblins from the Mines of Moria, every time I played the game the establishment of two large interwoven super power blocks just meant factions caught in the middle got shafted, and for some factions very quickly room for expansion became something of a scarce resource. And... admit it, you do kinda wonder what would happen if Saruman suddenly decided to turn on Sauron and led his legions of Uruk-Hai in the defense of Gondor.
Reasoning: While I can appreciate the love people have of the books and how odd it can seem that sometimes the computer leaves a city almost completely undefended, for me the scripted activity lessens the joy of this style of open game. The reason I enjoy the Total War games so much is just how much things vary from campaign to campaign, and anything that lessens that ruins some of the glamor for me. Do you remember that time in history when Egypt ruled the Iberian Peninsula? Good times, good times.

Having written it out, I suppose those two items are my main gripes. Having done that, some tweaks to gameplay would need to be made to balance it out a bit. Not to mention the return of the precious unit flags.

I could look into trying it myself, but I lack confidence in that area for M:TW, despite having done some amateur self-use-only modding in the past. Plus I suffer from that all-too-common problem of taking on too many personal projects at once, already.

**Yonan** · July 23, 2011, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by CrazyHarlequin

1. Severe reduction in the book established characters.
Action: Probably limit them to existing heads of state, and even then reduce their already existing traits severely. Maybe add a trait that limits the likelihood of them developing other traits (for example, I can't see the Witch King becoming an alcoholic), but that's about it.

In MOS, Sauron is unable to move from Barad Dur until the one ring is claimed by your faction. You could do similar with Aragorn etc. reduce their movement to 0 to keep them as governors. It is definitely possible to limit the acquisition of bad traits via scripts, but also by gameplay - I don't build inns anymore for example, to avoid alcoholic generals.

Severe reduction in 'special unit' generals, such as human generals who don't come in the standard heavy cavalry formation. While for some it just makes sense (the unmounted Orc general is a great idea for me, that really adds to the feeling of Mordor as a faction), in my view it would just simplify things.
Reasoning: As mentioned, for me the joy is in developing my own characters in game. While an obvious solution is to just use other generals, it does feel like I'm deliberately shooting myself in the foot when the computer is running around with 9-star generals right off the bat.

Easy enough to do, by removing the generals from the descr_strat.txt under each faction.

Action: Removal of the slow build in available troop types (this is better simulated in the slow development of barracks, in my perspective). Removal of the Garrison script

Common requests and easy enough to do, there are guides around.

Possible other actions: Severe lessening of the AI diplomatic predispositions.

Easy to do, although might require some fiddling to get how you want. End of the descr_strat.txt file has the initial diplomatic relations, and descr_campaign_ai_db.xml has all the campaign map ai tweaks, including disposition towards other factions.

I could look into trying it myself, but I lack confidence in that area for M:TW, despite having done some amateur self-use-only modding in the past. Plus I suffer from that all-too-common problem of taking on too many personal projects at once, already.

Most stuff you have mentioned is quick and easy to do, requiring small deletions or changing of numbers. Make backups and give it a bash ; )

**Noobio** · July 23, 2011, 10:01 AM

1...come on...the main fun of this mod is bringing these characters ingame...i guess it's just a point of view...but without aragorn ,witchking ,gandalf etc what's the sense in this??
this mod,being based on a perfectly established fantasy world creates such a depth when playing these guys that has no similar...props to all these guys that made ancillaries ,custom models and skins etc...personaly i 'm working on an idea of implementing also hero abilities ..in order to better rappresent each ones uniquness

a....regarding the traits...search for the "untainted heroes" submod...it resolves the alcoholic or pervert thing

reducing the starting traits could be a good idea if well balanced ,since it would give you more space to develop them

b...the bg units can be tweaked by yourself ,relatively easily ,through just one or max. two files...
- descr_strat and
- export_description_units (edu)

2...this one is more complicated ,as it has to do with the overall balance...
if high elves ,for example had less replenishment ratio they would be really unstopable...i guess it's just a matter of perspective..again...with a little bit of searching you could find some submod that could help you get what you want...

regarding alliances and diplomatic predisposition...it shouldn't worry you ..cause alliances just don't work as in military help

there's no chance that an ally will come to your resque or that an enemy's ally will come aiding his allies to your demise...it just won't happen ,cause the med2 game is flawed..if there are no scripts to make this happen (like in the beacons submod ,in some way) or if an invasion is on the way it just won't happen..

-again there is this submod that "cheats" forcing the diplomatic offer on the one who negotiates with you...can't remember it's title ,as i've never played it ,but it definetly exists

**smoesville** · July 23, 2011, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Noobas

regarding alliances and diplomatic predisposition...it shouldn't worry you ..cause alliances just don't work as in military help

there's no chance that an ally will come to your resque or that an enemy's ally will come aiding his allies to your demise...it just won't happen ,cause the med2 game is flawed..if there are no scripts to make this happen (like in the beacons submod ,in some way) or if an invasion is on the way it just won't happen...

I found that when i added the rangers as a faction that Eriador was very helpful for me

Though i'll admit that was likely the only time i've seen this in M2TW except by script. Also a couple of times they "helped" and got my FM and an entire army killed when mid-battle they lost the general and broke, leaving me with 700ish men against nearly 4000

**Noobio** · July 23, 2011, 10:11 AM

well..if an ally general is found next to you then he will help (or ask for your help if it's him getting attacked)

BUT

there's no way that ,let's say you're being under siege ,he'll leave his nice castle and come to help you out

**smoesville** · July 23, 2011, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Noobas

well..if an ally general is found next to you then he will help (or ask for your help if it's him getting attacked)

BUT

there's no way that ,let's say you're being under siege ,he'll leave his nice castle and come to help you out

In general yes, but that's what was weird about eriador helping, they actually left staddle and attacked the OoG army that was besieging Amon Sûl.

**Ngugi** · July 23, 2011, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by smoesville

In general yes, but that's what was weird about eriador helping, they actually left staddle and attacked the OoG army that was besieging Amon Sûl.

A matter of range of sight then I would say, they saw an enemy and went to kick it's ass rather than help out

**Noobio** · July 23, 2011, 10:22 AM

then maybe they should give everyone a pair of binoculars haha

**Ngugi** · July 23, 2011, 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Noobas

-again there is this submod that "cheats" forcing the diplomatic offer on the one who negotiates with you...can't remember it's title ,as i've never played it ,but it definetly exists

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=463385
It works fine

Originally Posted by Noobas

then maybe they should give everyone a pair of binoculars haha

Yeah haha.
Or a whole GPS system. Made by the elves.

**Vifarc** · July 23, 2011, 11:12 AM

Warhammer TW can be good for those not wanting Tolkien lore in TW.

**Trailhog250** · July 23, 2011, 06:09 PM

Hmmmm..... I see where you're coming from. *In a way* But, what kept making it less enjoyable for me was the AI stacks and cheats. I could take the challenge and cope with it which I didn't have any *major* problems with. But it ruined the whole 'Middle-Earth' lore-immersion for me

I use MOS, maybe it has something to offer you. It's in my sig, it's the one I use. (and one I'm involved with)

**CrazyHarlequin** · July 23, 2011, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by Trailhog250

Hmmmm..... I see where you're coming from. *In a way* But, what kept making it less enjoyable for me was the AI stacks and cheats. I could take the challenge and cope with it which I didn't have any *major* problems with. But it ruined the whole 'Middle-Earth' lore-immersion for me

I use MOS, maybe it has something to offer you. It's in my sig, it's the one I use. (and one I'm involved with)

Ill look into it. The insane money the computer just gets gifted with may make it more fun for some by providing a challenge, but for me it is just frustrating when Gondor throw yet ANOTHER 20-stack army at the Gates of Baradur one turn after the last one.

And as for the mention of Warhammer: Total War, from what I've read of that mod it looks really interesting, but also looks like it is even more scripted, to the extent that guides I've read for playing certain factions basically revolve around exploiting the way the scripts work for your advantage.

Edit: Additional: Again, thank you. It's good to see a constructive reaction to what are - if I'm being brutally honest - flimsy requests.