Miracles - To Atheists

**Prodigal** · July 21, 2011, 12:45 PM

Atheists, what are your beliefs about miracles? Yes, yes, I'm sure you think many of the false, but what of such widely seen miracles as the appearance of the ever-virgin Mary on top of Coptic churches in Egypt by Christians and Muslims alike, whole crowds of people forming, just standing and watching; or the Holy Fire in Jerusalem, where the Patriarch of Jerusalem goes into the tomb, prays, and then is enveloped in flames, as are his candles, and when he exits the tomb fire flies out from him, igniting candles throughout the crowd. And for a time they do not burn, watch videos yourself, women stick it in their hair. The Patriarch comes out as a literal ball of fire, he oftentimes cannot be seen, and this miracle has been dated back hundreds of years.

How do atheists explain these miracles, then?

**justicar5** · July 21, 2011, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kaitsar

Atheists, what are your beliefs about miracles? Yes, yes, I'm sure you think many of the false, but what of such widely seen miracles as the appearance of the ever-virgin Mary on top of Coptic churches in Egypt by Christians and Muslims alike, whole crowds of people forming, just standing and watching; or the Holy Fire in Jerusalem, where the Patriarch of Jerusalem goes into the tomb, prays, and then is enveloped in flames, as are his candles, and when he exits the tomb fire flies out from him, igniting candles throughout the crowd. And for a time they do not burn, watch videos yourself, women stick it in their hair. The Patriarch comes out as a literal ball of fire, he oftentimes cannot be seen, and this miracle has been dated back hundreds of years.

How do atheists explain these miracles, then?

Fraud.

**Christonikos** · July 21, 2011, 01:00 PM

Well, there is an explaination about how the Holy fire lights up. Just google it a little.

**Ancient Aliens** · July 21, 2011, 01:04 PM

The exact reasons why I don't see UFO or ghost related media or testimony among evidence is the same reason why I don't see "miracle" related media or testimony as evidence: the subjects have a vested interest to prove their accounts, and thusly, are unreliable and prejudiced. Pictoral evidence and testimony can be altered or elaborated; it proves nothing.

**Monarchist** · July 21, 2011, 01:21 PM

To be perfectly honest, atheists ignore miracles because they don't see any.

How many miracles have we Catholics actually seen? Who is to say that the real flesh and real blood of certain Eucharistic miracles are not simply from dead bodies exhumed, cut up, and placed in glass? It is a macabre thought, but humans are willing to sink pretty low. Obviously we'd have to establish a motive for using dead flesh in pretense of Christ's flesh - and it certainly isn't money, since I doubt they make much from those pilgrims... but you never know. I'm just saying that there's enough reasonable doubt for me not to genuflect at the Lanciano monstrance, for instance.

We cannot blindly accept everything that a bunch of bishops say are miracles. 70% of bishops (or more) were totally dishonest heretics during the Arian schism. Imagine what just one obnoxious and dishonest man can do with the innocent faith of many. As an atheist, I didn't accept miracles because I didn't see any; as a Christian, I still haven't seen any, and I'm not convinced that they still occur. Our Lord was pleased to work them, but where are they now?

Miracles of divine providence occur every day, like this: http://fromthefriars.blogspot.com/ (July 8, 2011 entry), but the actual walking-on-water, healing-the-incurable, making-the-crippled-walk miracles obviously do not occur on a public level right now. If they did, it would get out somehow (Twitter, Facebook), even if the agnostics in the media suppressed it. This applies to the Patriarchs on fire, and their unseen miracle which they alone happen to be privy to.

**IronBrig4** · July 21, 2011, 01:02 PM

Hell, I'm a Christian and I think most of these "miracles" are made up.

**Veliky Kaiser Theos** · July 21, 2011, 01:02 PM

I don't believe in miracles as for some reason, decent quality photographs just don't seem to be available. The picture posted could be just about anything.

**Helm** · July 21, 2011, 01:04 PM

How do we know thats the Virgin Mary? It clearly is something that does exist I have no idea what it is, things like that can potentially be rigged.

**Ancient Aliens** · July 21, 2011, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by Helm

How do we know thats the Virgin Mary?

How do we know the video or the event wasn't staged?

**The Dude** · July 21, 2011, 01:07 PM

I think Virgin Mary would be pretty pissed if the only evidence of her appearance were to come in the form of some two frames-per-second youtube flick with poor sound and even poorer imagery.

**Prodigal** · July 21, 2011, 01:11 PM

You would deny the witness of the miracle by over 500,000 Egyptians, most Muslim, with no "vested interest"?

I have witnessed miracles myself. I must say I was sceptical until I saw them. We all have a bit of St. Thomas in us.

**justicar5** · July 21, 2011, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Kaitsar

You would deny the witness of the miracle by over 500,000 Egyptians, most Muslim, with no "vested interest"?

I have witnessed miracles myself. I must say I was sceptical until I saw them. We all have a bit of St. Thomas in us.

Except that the Virgin Mary is important in Islam as well......

**Ancient Aliens** · July 21, 2011, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by justicar5

Except that the Virgin Mary is important in Islam as well......

Exactly what I was about to say

**Prodigal** · July 21, 2011, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by justicar5

Except that the Virgin Mary is important in Islam as well......

Except that it would go against their belief for her to appear on a Coptic Church with doves and kneel before a cross, instead of appear on top of a mosque. It is obvious what is true.

**justicar5** · July 21, 2011, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Kaitsar

Except that it would go against their belief for her to appear on a Coptic Church with doves and kneel before a cross, instead of appear on top of a mosque. It is obvious what is true.

Except it wouldn't, Jesus is a prophet in Islam, they believe that the messiah was added later, they still reckon he was crucified, and died a martyr, and that the Virgin Mary was his mother. (AFAIK, it would take a Muslim to correct me on this)

**Helm** · July 21, 2011, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by justicar5

they still reckon he was crucified, and died a martyr

No they don't. He was raised from the cross by God and replaced with Judas or something.

**Prodigal** · July 21, 2011, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by justicar5

Except it wouldn't, Jesus is a prophet in Islam, they believe that the messiah was added later, they still reckon he was crucified, and died a martyr, and that the Virgin Mary was his mother. (AFAIK, it would take a Muslim to correct me on this)

Then why would she not appear over a mosque? Why a church? Hmmmmm...

**The Dude** · July 21, 2011, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Kaitsar

You would deny the witness of the miracle by over 500,000 Egyptians, most Muslim, with no "vested interest"?

I have witnessed miracles myself. I must say I was sceptical until I saw them. We all have a bit of St. Thomas in us.

Appeal to numbers. "500.000 people can't be wrong". Yes, they can, and if they are then no amount of logical fallacies is going to save them