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    Default IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    ceretic, a new developer for IB2, has been working on some further developments and ideas to our mod that we are going to eventually add. He will be presenting them here for discussion


    Quote Originally Posted by ceretic View Post
    I introduced myself earlier, I am Ceretic, and I have been asked by Riothamus to review the historical accuracy of the Conquestus Britanniae mod with particular refererence to the names of settlements and provinces in Britain but also to consider the names of factions, royal families and other aspects of historicity. I have been studying the history of sub-Roman Britain for more than ten years and it is a subject on which I have amassed a large number of books as well as an accumulation of personal knowledge on this contentious arena acquired through reading numerous studies of the subject. Among the sources I am using are; Tacitus on Britannia and Germany; Dark Age Britain by Marsh, In Search of the Dark Ages by Wood, The Barddas of Iolo Morgannwg by Morgannwg (for the legendary capital of Cornwall), Beginnings of English Society by Whitelock (Old English place names), Bede: The History of the English Church and its People (place names in Northumbria), The Picts by Clarkson, The Earliest English Kings by Kirby (for Anglo-Saxon dynasts), AD500 by Young, British Kings & Queens by Robinson, numerous books by Geoffrey Ashe for locations in the south-west in particular, Early Wars of Wessex by Major (south west again), Signposts to the Past by Gelling (for place name etymology in obscure locations) and my own knowledge built up from numerous papers on the subjects.

    Naming of Provinces and Settlements in Sub-Roman Britain

    I have tried to establish some general principles for the languages used for the naming of settlements and provinces based on the historic reality, essentially they are as follows;

    • Latin based names are kept in the east midlands, southern and south-eastern areas of Britain. These were the areas under Roman civilian administration during occupation and for a period afterwards when this game is set. This is the area where Roman ways survived most intact until the Adventus Saxonum.
    • Brythonic based names should be maintained in the south-west, west (Wales), midlands, north Britain and most of what we today call Scotland. The Pictish language is now considered by most academics to have been a northern dialect of Brythonic that was not influenced by Latin.
    • The Brythonic prefix or suffix Din is preferred for all places without Roman foundation; e.g. not a former civitas capital and a place built by the Britons. Din means "fort" and is found in places like Môr Din (Carmarthen), Din Guardi (Bamburgh), Din Gonwy (Conway) etc. The prefix Caer is restricted to former Roman civitas capitals such as Caer Ebrauc (York), Caer Liguelid (Carlisle), Caerlleon (Burrium), Caer Uisc (Isca Dumnoniorum) etc.
    • Gaelic based names only found in Britannia in the south-west of todays "Scotland" (I call Caledonia) around Argyll. This was the homeland of the Dal Riadi and this area did not enlarge until the 9th Century AD. The prefix Dún will only be utilised in these areas being the Gaelic form of Din.
    • Germanic based names only found in coastal settlements in the east-midlands and south-east; these areas would include the coast of "East Anglia", the coasts of "Kent" and "Sussex", the Fens and the coast of "Northumbria". These names will be variants in Old English appropriate to the time of the game.
    • Where there is a known alternative name in Brythonnic for a place currently with a Latin name which is in an area ruled, or soon to be ruled, by a Brythonnic faction then it should use the Brythonic language version; e.g. Uriconium becomes Caer Guricon.
    • Where there are no known settlements then a name should be created based on something authentic such as a physical feature of the land but using the language principles above.
    • The practise of mixing languages in province and settlement names (such as Caer Martlesham) is discontinued.
    • Where a directional suffix is added to a provincial name (e.g. "south") this is done in modern English (e.g. South Rheged) because using native languages for this would be lost on the player and would be incongruous... it would not be based on a known historical name.
    • Well known names are maintained where possible, e.g. "Lothian" (meaning the land of King Lot)
    Revised Province and Settlement Names based on existing list

    From the list Riothamus sent me I have revised the names of settlements and provinces based on historic sources (as above). I have not made any changes to such names outside the island of Britain, because in these areas my knowledge and sources are lacking. But as a summary these are;
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Brythonic Southwest Britain

    {Dumnoniorum}Dyfnaint
    {Isca}Caer Uisc
    {Dumnonii}Kernow
    {Laira}Celliwig
    {Acquae_Solis}Gwlad yr Hafren
    {Acquae_Solis}Aquæ Sulis
    {Glevum}Glevum
    {Glevum}Caer Caerloyw
    {Durnovaria}Dwrtrigion
    {Durnovaria}Durnovaria

    Brythonic West Britain (Wales)

    {Gwynedd}Lower Gwynedd
    {Segontium}Din Gonwy
    {Venedotia}Upper Gwynedd
    {Caer_Ordovices}Dol Badarn
    {Deva}Deva
    {Deva}Deva Victrix
    {Mona}Môn
    {Mona}Aberffraw
    {Brycheiniog}Brycheiniog
    {Gobannium}Talgarth
    {Dyfed}Dyfed
    {Dyfed}Dinefwr
    {Gwrtheyrnion}Gwrtheyrnion
    {Caer_Gwrtheyrnion}Din Gwrtheyrn
    {Ceredigion}Ceredigion
    {Dun_Ceredigion}Din Ceredig
    {Ost_Gwynedd}Dynoding
    {Ost_Gwynedd}Craig Câs
    {Pengwern}Pengwern
    {Caer_Luitcoyt}Caer Luitcoyt
    {Caerdydd}Glywysing
    {Caerdydd}Caerdydd

    Brythonic north Britain (Gododdin, Strathclyde, Ebrauc)

    {Ebrauc}Ebrauc
    {Caer_Ebrauc}Caer Ebrauc
    {Damnonii}Damnonii
    {Alcluith}Alt Clut
    {Vallum_Hadriani_Orientalis}Lower Bryneich
    {Corstopitum}Caer Vyrstyw
    {Galwyddel}Galwyddel
    {Galwyddel}Din Galwyddel
    {Vallum_Hadriani_Occidental}Llwyfenydd
    {Luguvalium}Caer Ligualid
    {Syd_Rheged}South Rheged
    {Mancunium}Mamucium
    {Habitancium}Y Clawdd
    {Habitancium}Din Dunot
    {Brynaich}Upper Bryneich
    {Ynys_Medcaut}Din Guardi
    {Gododdin}Lothian
    {Caer_Gododdin}Din Eidin
    {Elmet}Elmet
    {Cambodunum}Din Loidis
    {Selgovae}Selgovae
    {Isurium}Caer Wenddoleu
    {Parisi}Gwlad Catreath
    {Cataractonium}Din Catreath
    {Castrel_Yn_Ard}Inis Manannán
    {Castrel_Yn_Ard}Castrel Yn Ard
    {Ayr}Aeddon
    {Ayr}Din Aeddon
    {Ecclesbrith}Manau
    {Caer_Ecclesbrith}Din Iwdeu
    {Brigantvm}Brigantvm
    {Derventio}Din Derwen
    {Deira}Derenrice
    {Brough}Verteræ
    {Bernica}Beornice
    {Benoc}Dun Holm

    East and southeast Britain (Jutes, Saxons, Angles etc)

    {Cantia}Cantwara
    {Folkstone}Fulkstane
    {Trinobantes}Trinobantes
    {Londonium}Londinium
    {Clausentum}Clausentum
    {Clausentum}Clausentum
    {Noviomagus}Noviomagus
    {Noviomagus}Noviomagus
    {Thanet}Þanet
    {Ypwinesfleot}Ypwinesfleot
    {Camulodunum}Camulodunum
    {Camulodunum}Camulodunum
    {Catuvelluan}Verula
    {Verulamium}Verulamium
    {Flavia_Caesariensis}Lerion
    {Ratae}Caer Llyr
    {Andredes}Andredes Wald
    {Andredes_Ceastre}Andredes Ceastre
    {Regni}Suther Seax
    {Regni}Seoles
    {Hrofaesceaster}Hrofaesceaster
    {Hrofaes_Ceastre}Hrofaes Ceastre
    {Calleva}Astolat
    {Calleva}Calleva
    {Calchfynedd}Calchfynedd
    {Caer_Calchfynedd}Din Cynwydion
    {Vectis}Vectis
    {Carisbrooke}Caer Ysbrug
    {Dubrae}Dubrae
    {Richboro}Rutupiæ

    Gaelic Dalriatan territories

    {Dal_Riata_Caledonia}Cenél nGabráin
    {Dunadd}Dún Add
    {Averte}Cenél Loairn
    {Dun_Averte}Dún Ollaigh
    {Islay} Cenél nÓengusa
    {Dun_Islay}Port an Eilein

    Pictish areas in N.Scotland

    {Fib}Fib
    {Dun_Pharlain}Din Nechtain
    {Cat}Cait
    {Grummore}Din Achairn
    {Fotla}Fortriu
    {Craig_Phadrig}Craig Phadraig
    {Circind}Circind
    {Obar_Dheathain}Aber Dheathain

    Note: Many places on the pre-existing list I have not put up here because I am still working on them.

    Tentatively Proposed Revised Provincial Map, draft 1

    In addition to this I have created this map with large provinces on it (SEE ATTACHMENT). The map does not correspond with the list above. The provinces on this map will probably need subdivision in some areas and I think certain cities should be provinces in their own right (so the outlying areas can fall to invasion but the city can endure, as if besieged, by another faction. This map is, I believe, an important guide to a review of the for provincial boundaries - although perhaps slightly off my remit - because it is based on the old county boundaries. Why? Well, in many cases the county boundary lines are extremely ancient; take the border between Hamphire and Berkshire as a case inpoint, the Hampshire boundary is diverted north from another clear line along a major Roman road to include the environs around Silchester (previously Calleva). Given that Calleva was abandoned around 500AD and after which control of a depopulated ruin would have been an irrelevance, this proves the existence of this boundary before 500AD. There are many other examples. Also, these lines often follow natural features such as rivers or hills that have for a longtime been ancient borders going back as far as the Iron Age tribes of pre-Roman Britain, note the borders of Dorset and the Durotriges tribe, not the borders of Essex (when including Hertfordshire and Middlesex) and the Trinovantes tribe, and the borders of the old diocese of Worcester (Gloucestershire, Warwickshire and Worcestershire) and the borders of the Hwicce kingdom (a successor state of the Dubonni tribe of the Iron Age), there are other examples too.

    Key benefits of the retention of some of these old lines (as a basis for future divisions) are that, a) Expanding factions in either the east, south, north or west will bring provinces together into a combined territory that will look sensible, no sharp angles, no bizarre lobes of territory surrounded by others, the territories formed will be in contiguous territories forming attractive blocks. b)Many of these old lines are recognisable to the player, adding a sense of authenticity and realism., c)The lines are probably as close as you can get to pre-existing territories based on the limited historical facts available (as per Silchester example).

    This is not a final and many of the provinces will need to be split into smaller units, but it should be a guide. The provincial names are all authentic and based on ancient names following the naming principles above. The red squares indicate crucial Roman cities which I think ought to be small city based provinces in their own right.

    Faction Names

    I strongly urge the abolition of the Catuvellauni faction because this certainly did not exist in the time frame of this game. I would replace Catuvellauni with Consilium Britannorum or "Council of Britain" which was, according to the sources, the principle government of sub-Roman southeastern Britain. This would not have a normal royal family, as such, but would (perhaps like the Papal States in M2TW), be able to appoint and adopt to survive; key figures would be characters with Roman names, perhaps the Bishop of London etc. The Consilium Britannorum would naturally by a rival with the Regnum Britanniae or Kingdom of Britain espoused by traditionalists in the south-west...

    I also suggest that there are more Anglo-Saxon factions. I would name these after their founding fathers; e.g. the Ællingas (the South Saxons), the Æscingas (the East Saxons), the Wuffingas (East Angles), the Eoppingas (the North Angles) and Yterne (meaning "Jutes") as the name of the (Jutish faction) centred in Cantwara (Kent).

    Dynasties

    I have created these recommended Kings and Family Members at Game Start based on the historical persons at the time in their respective realms, however, in some realms I have merged these historical figures with ones associated with Arthurian Legend, e.g. Arthyr, Gawain, Peredur, Aggravane, Bors, King Lot, Emrys Guletic (Ambrosius) etc. I have done this usually by making “real” kings (those found in the Annals, etc) brothers of “legendary” kings. The player can thus allow either one or the other to perish and have a game of Arthurian Legend or a game of Sub-Roman Fact...or both.
    The legendary characters should all be contemporaries of each other as the game progresses; in essence King Arthur and His Round Table. They may be on opposing sides but they will be there if the player wants to form a broad alliance against the Saxons.
    I have also formulated a list of names for each faction, these are different and will add to game play because they are names strongly and often uniquely associated with those realms.

    Pictavia (name replaces The Picts)
    Dynastic Name: none
    First king: King Drust (40)
    First heir: Prince Talorc (5)
    Others: Nechtan (1)

    Male Name list:
    Drust
    Brude
    Talorc
    Talorcan
    Galan
    Nechtan
    Gartnait
    Taran
    Ciniod

    Surnames list:
    of Fortriu
    of Fib
    of Ce
    of Cait
    of Circinn
    of Fotla
    of Fidach
    of Skete
    of Orcadia

    Sources: The Picts: A History by Tim Clarkson (2008), p. 55-58, A Consideration of Pictish Names by Tangwystyl verch Morgant Glasvryn (1996), Online
    Note: The Picts used a system of Matrilinear Succession but I don’t think this can be replicated in the game. Also, they had a very limited group of “royal names” (see Name List) which I believe we should stick to.


    Gododdin

    Dynastic Name: none
    King Lot Luwddoc (25) m. Morgause
    Prince Gawain (7) (son)
    Dumnagual (5 (son)
    Aggrafayne (1) (son)
    Name list: Gwalchmai, Concar, Morcant, Dumnagual, Owain, Coledauc, Bran, Padarn, Tegid, Coel, Ceretic, Elidyr


    Alt Clut

    Dynastic Name: none
    King Ceretic Guletic (40)
    Prince Cinuit (10) (son)
    Gwyddno (6) (son)
    Name List: Rhydderch, Clinoch, Tutagual, Elidyr, Nudd, Owain, Urien, Mordaf, Senyllt, Ceretic, Cinuit, Gwyddno, Neithon, Beli, Tegid, Elfin


    Venedotia or Gwynedd

    Dynastic Name: none
    King Cunedda Guletic (50)
    Prince Einion (25) (son of Cunedda)
    Cadwallon Lawhir (9) (son of Einion)
    Owain Ddantgwyn (5) (son of Einion)
    Ceredig (20) (son of Cunedda)
    Bors (1) (son of Ceredig)
    Dynod (14) (son of Cunedda)
    Rhun (10) (son of Cunedda)

    Name List: Maelgwn, Owain, Gruffudd, Beli, Idwal, Cynan, Caradog, Aeddan, Maredudd, Cadfan, Cadafael, Dogmael, Iago, Rhodri, Anarawd, Bleddyn, Madog, Cadwallon


    Powys

    Dynastic Name: Gwrtheyrnion
    King Catigern Fendigaid (25)
    Prince Cadell (5) (son)
    Rhyddfedd Frych (2) (son)

    Name List: Cadell, Cyngan, Pasgen, Morgan, Brochfael, Cynan, Selyf, Elisedd, Manwgan, Gwylog, Beli, Eiludd, Bleddyn, Cadwgan, Madog, Maredudd


    Regnum Britanniæ

    Dynastic Name: Pendraig
    King Custennyn Corneu (80)
    Prince Emrys Guletic (55) (son of Custennyn, using the Welsh spelling replacing Ambrosius)
    Uther (30) (son of Emrys)
    Arthyr (3) (son of Uther)
    Morgaine (1) (princess) (daughter of Uther)
    Erbin (25) (son of Emrys)
    Geraint (1) (son of Erbin)

    Name List: Geraint, Gerren, Cado, Custennyn, Bledric, Clemen, Pedroc, Dungarth, Dyfnwal, Ithel, Gadeon, Conan, Meriadoc, Mordaf, Hopcyn, Huwal, Ricatus, Eluid, Erbin


    Concilium Britanniae (to replace Catuvellauni faction which did not exist in 5th Century AD)

    Note: It is recorded in Gildas (a contemporary writer) that the Britons had a kind of “council” of the towns and cities which attempted to negotiate with the Saxons. Vortigern initially was part of this outfit but then usurped dictatorial powers. I would have this organisation led by the [Saint] Germanicus and other characters with Roman names.

    Dynastic Name: none
    Consul Germanicus (70)
    Vice Consul Paternus (50)
    Riothamus (30)

    Name List: Aurelius, Marcus, Antoninus, Paternus, Tacitus, Agricola, Riothamus, Tullius, Octavian, Caratacus, Julius, Paulinus, Lucas, Iacobus, Ibericus
    Ceretic

    Quote Originally Posted by ceretic View Post
    In game Quotes

    These quotes are from De Excidio et Conquistu Britanniae written by the Welsh/British monk Gildas in about 560AD. Translated by Giles, J. A. (John Allen), 1808-1884. ed. in his book Six old English chronicles, of which two are now first translated from the monkish Latin originals. (1891)
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Gildas on the Picts and Scots

    "No sooner were the Romans gone, than the Picts and Scots, like worms which in the heat of mid-day come forth from their holes, hastily land again from their canoes, in which they had been carried beyond the Cichican valley, differing one from another in manners, but inspired with the same avidity for blood, and all more eager to shroud their villainous faces in bushy hair than to cover with decent clothing those parts of their body which required it."

    "The Britons, impatient at the assaults of the Scots and Picts, their hostilities and dreadful oppressions, send ambassadors to Rome with letters, entreating in piteous terms the assistance of an armed band to protect them, and offering loyal and ready submission to the authority of Rome, if they only would expel their invading foes."

    On the Saxons

    "For a council was called to settle what was best and most expedient to be done, in order to repel such frequent and fatal irruptions and plunderings. Then all the councillors, together with that proud tyrant Vortigern, the British king, were so blinded, that, as a protection to their country, they sealed its doom by inviting in among them (like wolves into the sheep-fold), the fierce and impious Saxons, a race hateful both to God and men, to repel the invasions of the northern nations. Nothing was ever so pernicious to our country, nothing was ever so unlucky. What palpable darkness must have enveloped their minds-darkness desperate and cruel! Those very people whom, when absent, they dreaded more than death itself, were invited to reside, as one may say, under the selfsame roof."

    "A multitude of whelps came forth from the lair of this barbaric lioness, in three 'keels', as they call them, that is, in three ships of war, with their sails wafted by the wind and with omens and prophecies favourable, for it was foretold by a certain soothsayer among the Saxons, that they should occupy the country to which they were sailing three hundred years, and half of that time, a hundred and fifty years, should plunder and despoil the same. They first landed on the eastern side of the island, by the invitation of the unlucky king, and there fixed their sharp talons, apparently to fight in favour of the island, but alas! more truly against it."

    A Description of Britain

    "The island of Britain, situated on almost the utmost border of the earth, towards the south and west, and poised in the divine balance, as it is said, which supports the whole world, stretches out from the south-west towards the north pole, and is eight hundred miles long and two hundred broad, except where the headlands of sundry promontories stretch farther into the sea. It is surrounded by the ocean, which forms winding bays, and is strongly defended by this ample, and, if I may so call it, impassable barrier, save on the south side, where the narrow sea affords a passage to Baltic Gaul. It is enriched by the mouths of two noble rivers, the Thames and the Severn, as it were two arms, by which foreign luxuries were of old imported, and by other streams of less importance. It is famous for eight and twenty cities, and is embellished by certain castles, with walls, towers, well barred gates, and houses with threatening battlements built on high, and provided with all requisite instruments of defence. Its plains are spacious, its hills are pleasantly situated, adapted for superior tillage, and its mountains are admirably calculated for the alternate pasturage of cattle, where flowers of various colours, trodden by the feet of man, give it the appearance of a lovely picture. It is decked, like a man's chosen bride, with divers jewels, with lucid fountains and abundant brooks wandering over the snow white sands; with transparent rivers, flowing in gentle murmurs, and offering a sweet pledge of slumber to those who recline upon their banks, whilst it is irrigated by abundant lakes, which pour forth cool torrents of refreshing water."

    "Britain has kings, but they are tyrants; she has judges, but unrighteous ones; generally engaged in plunder and rapine, but always preying on the innocent; whenever they exert themselves to avenge or protect, it is sure to be in favour of robbers and criminals; they have an abundance of wives, yet are they addicted to fornication and adultery; they are ever ready to take oaths, and as often perjure themselves; they make a vow and almost immediately act falsely; they make war, but their wars are against their countrymen, and are unjust ones; they rigorously prosecute thieves throughout their country, but those who sit at table with them are robbers, and they not only cherish but reward them; they give alms plentifully, but in contrast to this is a whole pile of crimes which they have committed; they sit on the seat of justice, but rarely seek for the rule of right judgment; they despise the innocent and the humble, but seize every occasion of exalting to the utmost the bloody-minded; the proud, murderers, the combined and adulterers, enemies of God, who ought to be utterly destroyed and their names forgotten."

    The Defence of Britain

    "The Roman legion had no sooner returned home in joy and triumph, than their former foes, like hungry and ravening wolves, rushing with greedy jaws upon the fold which is left without a shepherd, and wafted both by the strength of oarsmen and the blowing wind, break through the boundaries, and spread slaughter on every side, and like mowers cutting down the ripe corn, they cut up, tread under foot, and overrun the whole country."

    "The Romans, therefore, left the country, giving notice that they could no longer be harassed by such laborious expeditions, nor suffer the Roman standards, with so large and brave an army, to be worn out by sea and land by fighting against these unwarlike, plundering vagabonds; but that the islanders, inuring themselves to warlike weapons, and bravely fighting, should valiantly protect their country, their property, wives and children, and, what is dearer than these, their liberty and lives; that they should not suffer their hands to be tied behind their backs by a nation which, unless they were enervated by idleness and sloth, was not more powerful than themselves, but that they should arm those hands with buckler, sword, and spear, ready for the field of battle"

    "To oppose the barbarians there was placed on the Wall a garrison equally slow to fight and ill adapted to run away, a useless and panic-struck company, who clambered away days and nights on their unprofitable watch. Meanwhile the hooked weapons of their enemies were not idle, and our wretched countrymen were dragged from the wall and dashed against the ground. Such premature death, however, painful as it was, saved them from seeing the miserable sufferings of their brothers and children."

    The Britons left their cities, abandoned the protection of the wall and dispersed themselves in flight more desperately than before. The enemy, on the other hand, pursued them with more unrelenting cruelty than before, and butchered our countrymen like sheep, so that their habitations were like those of savage beasts; for they turned their arms upon each other, and for the sake of a little sustenance, imbrued their hands in the blood of their fellow countrymen. Thus foreign calamities were augmented by domestic feuds; so that the whole country was entirely destitute of provisions, save such as could be procured in the chase.

    "For it has always been a custom with our nation, it is at present, to be impotent in repelling foreign foes, but bold and invincible in raising civil war, and bearing the burdens of their offences they are impotent, I say, in following the standard of peace and truth, but bold in wickedness and falsehood. The audacious invaders therefore return to their winter quarters, determined before long again to return and plunder. During these truces, the wounds of the distressed people are healed, but another sore, still more venomous, broke out. No sooner were the ravages of the enemy checked, than the island was deluged with a most extraordinary plenty of all things, greater than was before known, and with it grew up every kind of luxury and licentiousness."

    "For the fire of barbarian vengeance spread from sea to sea, fed by the hands of our foes in the east, and did not cease, until, destroying the neighbouring towns and lands, it reached the other side of the island, and dipped its red and savage tongue in the western ocean. So that all the columns were levelled with the ground by the frequent strokes of the battering-ram, all the husbandmen routed, together with their bishops, priests, and people, whilst the sword gleamed, and the flames crackled around them on every side. Lamentable to behold, in the midst of the streets lay the tops of lofty towers, tumbled to the ground, stones of high walls, holy altars, fragments of human bodies, covered with livid clots of coagulated blood, looking as if they had been squeezed together in a press; and with no chance of being buried, save in the ruins of the houses, or in the ravening bellies of wild beasts and birds."

    "Some, therefore, of the miserable remnant of the Britons, being taken in the mountains, were murdered in great numbers; others, constrained by famine, came and yielded themselves to be slaves for ever to their foes, running the risk of being instantly slain, which truly was the greatest favour that could be offered them: some others passed beyond the seas with loud lamentations instead of the voice of exhortation. Others, committing the safeguard of their lives, which were in continual jeopardy, to the mountains, precipices, thickly wooded forests, and to the rocks of the seas (albeit with trembling hearts), remained still in their country."

    The Groan of the Britons, a letter from the Council of Britain to the Roman General Aetius in Gaul
    "The barbarians drive us to the sea; the sea throws us back on the barbarians: thus two modes of death await us, we are either slain or drowned."

    Ambrosius Aurelianus

    "That they might not be brought to utter destruction, some poor remnant of our nation took arms under the conduct of Ambrosius Aurelianus, a modest man, who of all the Roman nation was then alone in the confusion of this troubled period by chance left alive. His parents, who for their merit were adorned with the purple, had been slain in these same broils, and now his progeny in these our days, although shamefully degenerated from the worthiness of their ancestors, provoke to battle their cruel conquerors, and by the goodness of our Lord obtain the victory. After this, sometimes our countrymen, sometimes the enemy, won the field"

    Cuneglas, King of Powys
    "And thou too, Cuneglasse, why art thou fallen into the filth of thy former naughtiness, yea, since the very first spring of thy tender youth, thou bear, thou rider and ruler of many, and guider of the chariot which is the receptacle of the bear, thou contemner of God, and vilifier of his order, thou tawny butcher, as in the Latin tongue thy name signifies. Why dost thou raise so great a war as well against men as also against God himself, against men, yea, thy own countrymen, with thy deadly weapons, and against God with thine infinite offences?"

    Maelgwn Hir, King of Gwynedd
    "O thou dragon of the island, who hast deprived many tyrants, as well of their kingdoms as of their lives, and though the last-mentioned in my writing, the first in mischief, exceeding many in power, and also in malice, more liberal than others in giving, more licentious in sinning, strong in arms, but stronger in working thine own soul's destruction, Maglocune, why art thou (as if soaked in the wine of the Sodomitical grape) foolishly rolling in that black pool of shine offences? Why dost thou wilfully heap like a mountain, upon thy kingly shoulders, such a load of sins?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ceretic View Post
    I have made some new developments... and even went to Carisbrook Castle on the Isle of Wight on a fact finding mission and it gave me some further food for thought.

    Firstly, the naming of settlements. In many lowland areas of Britannia there are Roman towns or cities which existed at the time the game is set and as I laid out before I believe these should retain the Roman spelling in the south and east while tending towards Brythonic spellings in the west and north. This brought me to Carisbrook Castle on the Isle Wight... in the Roman Zone but without a clear name for the province or the settlement. The island was called Insula Vectis by the Romans. Gildas refers to the island as Ynys Gwaith. The Jutes led by Wihtgar "White Spear" invaded the island in 534 and after him the island was re-named. The settlement he built known as Wihtwaraburg was where he was buried. However close to this site at the centre of the island Excavations at Carisbrooke, Isle-of-Wight in 1969, viz;

    SZ485882 - "... re-examination of the 3rd-century aisled house, discovered in 1859 at the vicarage, showed that it had originated as an aisled barn measuring 19.8 x 14.0 m (64 x 46 ft), having a room with opus signinum floor 6.7m (22ft) square projecting at the north end. Later alterations (? 4th century) added further rooms at the north end, internal partitions in the aisles, a number of tessellated pavements, and the bath-suite in the south-west corner." (Britannia, 1970)

    A substantial Romano-British villa. So this was the settlement capital before the Jutish invasion which was later re-adapted by the barbarian Jutes and used as their own. The name, Carisbrook, lies in the Buccombe Valley... "combe" is derived from the Welsh "cwm" meaning valley. Buc... it is close to Bouc'h the Old Brythonic word meaning "Ram" (as in a male sheep) and a popular pre-Christian effigy. So Valley of the Ram. Also, Carisbrooke... study the name... the first section "Car" is just like the first element of Carlisle, Cardiff and countless other formerly Romano-British cities, "ys" can mean "it is" and then we have "brook" which could mean a stream in Old English, but perhaps, it could be a mutation of Bouc'h, the Ram. So we arrive at Caer ys Bouc'h - meaning "Ram's Castle" as the name for the settlement. A good example of etymological back engineering I think...

    So Isle of Wight would become Vectis province with its capital as Caer ys Bouc'h... recognisable to locals still but with a logic which is perhaps based on truth. I am working on place names using a variety of sources as well as detective work in the tricky areas such as this example just given.

    Secondly, I think a radical overhaul of the provincial boundaries is required. I submitted a map for Britannia using the old county lines as a guide for the reasons outlined before, expanding factions in either the east, south, north or west will bring provinces together into a combined territory that will look sensible, no sharp angles, no bizarre lobes of territory surrounded by others, the territories formed will be in contiguous territories forming attractive blocks. Most importantly though many of these old lines are recognisable to the player, adding a sense of authenticity and realism and these lines are probably as close as you can get to pre-existing territories based on the limited historical facts available.

    But what about beyond Britannia.

    Gaul Following some research I have found out that the ancient dioceses of France (abolished in 1792) were almost exactly the same as the Roman administrative divisions of Gaul before the establishment of France. Most of the dioceses were created in the 4th and 5th Centuries AD and remained unchanged until the 18th Century. For historicity this MUST be our borders of Gaul. In addition to that, I want to use the ancient divisions of Brittany as our guide in that area.

    Low Counties I would propose using the boundaries of some of the old duchies which existed before independence in the 17th Century. This would of course include Frisia etc.

    Germania Inferior I have not begun on this, but would tentatively propose ancient tribal boundaries based on Ptolemy's Geographia.

    Denmark - Denmark had "counties"... I have a map from the Middle Ages I can adapt.

    Ireland - as per the rationale with Britannia I would base the map on county boundaries with new names based on Gaelic kingdoms known to history in approximate place settings.

    Finally, an idea I saw in the Middle Earth Total War was having a few provinces which are only a city and its immediate environs, this could allow some Roman cities to survive marooned within barbarian territory, as London did between about 500-550AD before succumbing to the impious and accursed Saxon.

    I estimate that altogether based on the boundaries of the old map we would have a ceiling of 200 provinces doing this. I welcome your views and attach the map of the Gaulish Dioceses.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Ceretic
    Last edited by Riothamus; July 15, 2011 at 12:41 PM.

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Sounds like a profound historical reconsideration, especially the name thing.'however, are you aware that you can change settlement names via a script? Thats what i proposed earlier. E.g. Londinium becomes lundene after the saxons conquer it.

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Quote Originally Posted by Deutschland View Post
    Sounds like a profound historical reconsideration, especially the name thing.'however, are you aware that you can change settlement names via a script? Thats what i proposed earlier. E.g. Londinium becomes lundene after the saxons conquer it.
    I am not a technical guy... I am a book worm... so I wasn't aware that the names could change from one language to another automatically. If this is the case - perhaps Rio can advise - then it would be a very useful aspect of the game and add greatly to historicity.

    It would probably be possible to provide (or in some cases as per the Isle of Wight example intelligently contrive) a Brythonic name for all settlements (in northern Britain) and use a Latin or Brythonic name for all settlements in southern Britain.

    Regarding London, the case in point, it has had numerous names. The earliest was perhaps something like Caer Llundein (second part pronounced similarly to "Clean-Dane")and, according to legend, was founded by an eponymous King Lludd (pronounced "Kleethe"). It was built on two hills, the original names have been lost to time, but it was on the western one of these two hills that King Lludd was buried; hence the name "Ludgate Hill". The Romans make no mention of London as a going concern when they invaded Britannia in 43AD but in the 18th Century enormous pre-Roman walls were excavated in the City of London itself. The so-called "London Stone" is also, most probably, a relic from this time. Another aspect of interest is the place today called "Tower Hill" which, according to Arthurian Tradition, was previously known in Welsh as Y Bryn Gwyn or The White Hill (hence today's White Tower). It was here that the decapitated head of King Brân ap Llyr - lord of the underworld - was interred... supposedly forever to protect this island... but it was unearthed by Arthur who doubted the relics power... leading to his, and Britain's eventual demise. Left behind after the head of Brân was removed are the ravens - messengers of the underworld and also called brân in Welsh - who continue to guard this site to this day... and the guards at the Tower of London continue to give these special birds Welsh names, current birds include Merlin, Munin, Gwyllum, Erin and... erm... Baldrick.

    In the time of our game London would almost certainly have been referred to by its Roman title; Londinium. Post Saxon the ruins of the old city were referred to as Lundenburgh (meaning "London Castle") and the area outside the Roman Walls was known as Lundenwic (meaning "London Market"). It is from Lundenwic that we get the modern name Aldwich, meaning "Old Market". The Saxons fervently believed the ruins were the work of giants and were cursed, refusing to live in the city. Romano-British merchants in ever decreasing numbers continued to occupy some parts, especially of east London, for long after the Saxon conquest - or rather - the Romano-British surrender and evacuation of the city.
    Last edited by ceretic; July 20, 2011 at 11:27 AM.

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Another interesting piece of history, well done .

    Cheers.

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    WOW all of this is great it will be nice when it all make's it in game keep up the good work +rep

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Wow indeed. This Mod is allready absolutely awesome and very addictive(played for more then a 100 hours allready),but when these new features are implemented,or only a part of them,the CB mod,imho,will be in the top 5 of best TW mods ever!

    Thank you team and greetings!

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Quote Originally Posted by MorganH. View Post
    Wow indeed. This Mod is allready absolutely awesome and very addictive(played for more then a 100 hours allready),but when these new features are implemented,or only a part of them,the CB mod,imho,will be in the top 5 of best TW mods ever!

    Thank you team and greetings!
    We thanks you for your continued support Morgan

    Under the esteemed patronage of Ramon Gonzales y Garcia IB and IB2 Mod

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    MorganH.'s Avatar Finis adest rerum
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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Quote Originally Posted by Riothamus View Post
    We thanks you for your continued support Morgan
    My pleasure,and with the quality and developer support this Mod has(as all IB Mods do)its not a very difficult task to enjoy.

    Greetings and have a great weekend

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    ceretic, your changes are spot on from what I can tell. My area of 'expertise' comes from the continental Celtic languages, inscriptions, morphology, and that sort of thing. I have many books devoted to the Gaulish language and subject. I see a lot of similarities with Gaulish/Gallic of the B.C. and early A.D. period with the Gaelic and Brythonic Celtic languages changes you have proposed to the mod. Awesome job with all this!

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulattothrasher View Post
    ceretic, your changes are spot on from what I can tell. My area of 'expertise' comes from the continental Celtic languages, inscriptions, morphology, and that sort of thing. I have many books devoted to the Gaulish language and subject. I see a lot of similarities with Gaulish/Gallic of the B.C. and early A.D. period with the Gaelic and Brythonic Celtic languages changes you have proposed to the mod. Awesome job with all this!
    Mulatto, thanks, I know little about Gaulish. It would appear to have been a form of Celtic, neither P nor Q. I have read that it was still spoken in some remote parts of Gaul perhaps near Tours as late as the 7th Century. It seems to have been a sort of linguistic bridge between Brythonic and Latin from what I can see, Caesar said it had strong similarities with Latin...and yet was 'Celtic'.

    I would hazard the suggestion that settlements in Gaul (except Armorica) would be given Latin names but the provinces (dioceses) named in Gaulish and perhaps based on the tribes recorded by the Romans (but given Latin transliterations). The Belgians, it would appear, were different again, closer to Germanic.

    That's about it without getting too heavy... please tell us about Gaulish, any ideas for the provincial names of gaul and their locations?

    ceretic

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Quote Originally Posted by ceretic View Post
    Mulatto, thanks, I know little about Gaulish. It would appear to have been a form of Celtic, neither P nor Q. I have read that it was still spoken in some remote parts of Gaul perhaps near Tours as late as the 7th Century. It seems to have been a sort of linguistic bridge between Brythonic and Latin from what I can see, Caesar said it had strong similarities with Latin...and yet was 'Celtic'.

    I would hazard the suggestion that settlements in Gaul (except Armorica) would be given Latin names but the provinces (dioceses) named in Gaulish and perhaps based on the tribes recorded by the Romans (but given Latin transliterations). The Belgians, it would appear, were different again, closer to Germanic.

    That's about it without getting too heavy... please tell us about Gaulish, any ideas for the provincial names of gaul and their locations?

    ceretic
    Sorry for the late reply...I had forgotten about this. What reminded me was a song called "Shadow of Uther" by the band Kamelot. That song got me thinking about this awesome mod lol.

    Anyway, Gaulish is believed to have survived in the area and was bolstered by the arrival of the Britons. The only areas in Brittany that I know of that retained a Romance language (Latin or early French, I forget) was found around Quimper in Cornouaille in Brittany, but this was a minority enclave and went extinct sometime in the 1000's A.D. to Breton. So for game purposes the region should retain Celtic/Breton for the names and terminology while the rest of Gaul have Latin names as this seems to be the historical precedent for the area.

    From Gaulish which would be a couple hundred years or more prior, the region would have been spelled in Celtic as *Arimorika (Latin: Aremorica), and it's inhabitants known as the Arimorikoi. However this name doesn't appear to have been the name that the region was called in the Dark Ages, at least to others, since the name of Brittany, and not Aremorica, was the standard name of the region. Not sure what the name would be in the Breton language, however.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Concerning the p- and q- Celtic, Gaulish was mainly a p- Celtic language. A few tribes on the continent are thought to have spoken q- Celtic, such as the Sekuanoi (Latin: Sequani) since they carry the hard 'k/q' sound, and not the 'p' sound. So they, among others, may have been a relic among the p- Celtic Gaulish majority. Modern times one can compare the p- Celtic Welsh word map- to the q- Celtic Scottish Gaelic mac- ('son of'). This comes from the Gaulish variations of 'horse' (sounds like ekuos or epos) or young person ('makos' or 'mapos')

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulattothrasher View Post
    Sorry for the late reply...I had forgotten about this. What reminded me was a song called "Shadow of Uther" by the band Kamelot. That song got me thinking about this awesome mod lol.
    We thank you Mulattothrasher and for your interestig and constructive input. Maybe you can help used become more accurate with the mainland names in Gaul and Germania?

    Under the esteemed patronage of Ramon Gonzales y Garcia IB and IB2 Mod

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    ..trying to post a picture... not sure how, can it be uploaded?
    Last edited by ceretic; July 23, 2011 at 10:04 AM. Reason: dead link

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Ceretic and Modders,
    I am a fellow historian of the Dark ages, I've written a small amount (a 10,000 word academic book) about why medieval feudalism prevailed in England after the fall of Rome, and I am very impressed by your commitment to detail and your expansive knowledge of the era. I have however, a point that fits with this mod, and may well have been overlooked since it was only uncovered by my own studies - it refers to the superiority at fighting that the northern and Welsh kingdoms allegedly had. Wales and the North were, according to my source, only partially 'Romanised', with communities of Britons still effectively living in an old celtic and iron age tribal way of life. This explains the ease at which kingdoms like Northumbria and Powys were established, they had communities of trained(ish) warriors inhabiting their regions. Therefore perhaps this mod could make Welsh or Northern units slightly more powerful than their southern contemparies? -- Also name changes would be awesome

    Again Ceretic, amazing research, If there is anything that I can do to help out at all let me know, I don't mind lending a hand with research.

    Yours,
    Jimmi001

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Quote Originally Posted by ceretic View Post
    ..trying to post a picture... not sure how, can it be uploaded?
    Do you have imageshack ceretic? Something that can upload your pic and post em ..


    Quote Originally Posted by jimmi001 View Post
    Ceretic and Modders,
    I am a fellow historian of the Dark ages, I've written a small amount (a 10,000 word academic book) about why medieval feudalism prevailed in England after the fall of Rome, and I am very impressed by your commitment to detail and your expansive knowledge of the era. I have however, a point that fits with this mod, and may well have been overlooked since it was only uncovered by my own studies - it refers to the superiority at fighting that the northern and Welsh kingdoms allegedly had. Wales and the North were, according to my source, only partially 'Romanised', with communities of Britons still effectively living in an old celtic and iron age tribal way of life. This explains the ease at which kingdoms like Northumbria and Powys were established, they had communities of trained(ish) warriors inhabiting their regions. Therefore perhaps this mod could make Welsh or Northern units slightly more powerful than their southern contemparies? -- Also name changes would be awesome

    Again Ceretic, amazing research, If there is anything that I can do to help out at all let me know, I don't mind lending a hand with research.

    Yours,
    Jimmi001
    Welcome to our forums jimmi001

    Its an interesting perspective and one in some way we should be able to implement. For the most part a factions strength is accentuated along with its weakness. It would be wonderful to do this in more detail with powys and Alt Clut and the other factions... We will be coming back this way to add such ideas to the mod. I would like to hear more in more detail if you dont mind. You can continue posting here if you like and we will call upon ya
    Last edited by Riothamus; July 28, 2011 at 07:35 PM.

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    ceretic's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Quote Originally Posted by jimmi001 View Post
    Ceretic and Modders,
    I am a fellow historian of the Dark ages, I've written a small amount (a 10,000 word academic book) about why medieval feudalism prevailed in England after the fall of Rome, and I am very impressed by your commitment to detail and your expansive knowledge of the era. I have however, a point that fits with this mod, and may well have been overlooked since it was only uncovered by my own studies - it refers to the superiority at fighting that the northern and Welsh kingdoms allegedly had. Wales and the North were, according to my source, only partially 'Romanised', with communities of Britons still effectively living in an old celtic and iron age tribal way of life. This explains the ease at which kingdoms like Northumbria and Powys were established, they had communities of trained(ish) warriors inhabiting their regions. Therefore perhaps this mod could make Welsh or Northern units slightly more powerful than their southern contemparies? -- Also name changes would be awesome

    Again Ceretic, amazing research, If there is anything that I can do to help out at all let me know, I don't mind lending a hand with research.

    Yours,
    Jimmi001
    I concur with your views about the survival of native tradition in "Britannia Inferior" - the north and the west of Britain. I think this can probably best be worked into the mod by special units which can only be recruited in different parts of the country; the existing units the game currently has are, I think, excellent but certainly a special bonus as you suggest could be worked into certain elite brigades.

    On the subject of the survival of the Britons, I think another key feature of the survival of Britons in the west and the north-west was the rugged country of which they were the aboriginal inhabitants, while the incoming Saxons/Jutes/Angles were familiar with lowlands and, I suspect, were unable to make the upland regions productive because their own agricultural techniques were developed in the low lands of Angeln, Jutland and Saxony (respectively)...and thus they were reluctant to settle in these areas. So I think a combination of these factors was probably the reason why the Britons survived in the West.

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    I would like to make a remark about this:
    Low Countries I would propose using the boundaries of some of the old duchies which existed before independence in the 17th Century. This would of course include Frisia etc.
    Don't know if Ceretic means the duchies and counties like Flanders, Gelre, Holland and Brabant etc., but those were, as far as I know, mostly founded in the High Middle Ages under the Holy Roman Empire. But I don't if they were based on older political boundaries. As an illustration, the Frisii encompassed much more than what later became "Friesland", most of modern day Netherlands I think.

    Sorry if I'm missing the point here or spewing out irrelevant stuff

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Riothamus, I wonder how many forum goers know your screen name shares the name of a powerful Breton chief ?

    I do not think I can help too much with the mod since my Celtic time frame is B.C., almost exclusively. The things I do know about A.D. Celts is mainly the 'by product' of reading and researching B.C. Celts. It seems that Ceretic knows more about the A.D. time that the mod takes place in.

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulattothrasher View Post
    Riothamus, I wonder how many forum goers know your screen name shares the name of a powerful Breton chief ?

    I do not think I can help too much with the mod since my Celtic time frame is B.C., almost exclusively. The things I do know about A.D. Celts is mainly the 'by product' of reading and researching B.C. Celts. It seems that Ceretic knows more about the A.D. time that the mod takes place in.
    I take my name from Ceretic, the last independent King of Elmet (in the West Riding of Yorkshire), whose realm was invaded in 616AD and was among the last independent British polities outside of (modern) Cornwall, Wales and southern Scotland.

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    Default Re: IB2 CONQVESTVS BRITANNIAE II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulattothrasher View Post
    Riothamus, I wonder how many forum goers know your screen name shares the name of a powerful Breton chief ?
    Used to be a rare known or made more aware find by Geoffrey Ashe. A sort of ghostly figure but one attributed to how I see it, the end of the first of three phases that lay claim to a historical Arthur. All three seem to mesh with their own hero creating the popularized Arthur that has come down to us today


    We are really looking foward to adding ceretic Ceretic of Elmet new ideas
    Last edited by Riothamus; August 04, 2011 at 08:24 AM.

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