Horsemen of the Apocalypse

[misterbull]

I know it's been said many times many ways, but I think Scholarii are overpowered. Did some test with custom battles playing as idle, loose formation, wedged formation Scholarii vs. 4 units of Genoese crossbowmen and they couldn't even kill a single unit of Scholarii standing still.

I did another test with 4 units of javelinmen and they only killed a total of 5 units until they ran out of javs.

By they way, I'm using huge unit counts, so that's over 600 javs against 165 horses and only losing 5 horses/horsemen.

[Ichon]

I actually think crossbows should have a bit more attack. Their prime use was to against heavy armor and eventually the cost came down and the accuracy at range improved. The slow reload and less accurate at long range is the main downfalls as well as bulky and cumbersome and requiring lots of maintenance.

If you are shooting straight on to any unit it gets the maximum defensive ability. If you move to the side those numbers will go way up. And even higher if shooting at the rear.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Use arbalesters and gunners against any cavalry/infantry with more than 20 armour.

[Ichon]

Use arbalesters and gunners against any cavalry/infantry with more than 20 armour.

Handgunners work alright if you let them fire off alot of their ammo. I've been surprised fighting a few battles and had handgunners do over 200 kills.

[Nyarla]

yepp but until you get those, scholarii dominate the battlefields. thats 100 turns in late campaign, there won't be any equal HC until much later. sure they are limited to constantinople, but considering you never stop training them, and they crush everything easily, so add maximum chevrons and theres nothing better. every 2 turns i get to train a new unit, none of my scholarii units got ever wiped out, so retraining is easy.
they ain't limited to charging and can push through everything easily. running through tons of spearmen and feudal knights they take like no losses while killing hundreds and breaking enemy formations making it easy for the follow up infantry.

[misterbull]

Use arbalesters and gunners against any cavalry/infantry with more than 20 armour.

The 4 units of handgunners did eventually work (vs. 2 units of scholarii). The best bet for high period is to use hand gunners. Good advice.

I still think the armor is too high.

[misterbull]

No, I think they're completely broken at this point. I've been wanting to do some tests since they are the strongest cavalry unit man to man. I recently played some multiplayer battles as the Romans and completely annihilated the opponent and my Scholarii should've been destroyed by the melee engagements with heavy plate armored infantry.

I read tons of posts about "Use javelins they dominate cavalry" and so I did. One full stack of javelinmen from different regions (Afghan, Kurdish, Iberian, Lithuanian mixed up). The full stack gets obliterated by silver shield upgraded scholarii. These scholarii are the Horsemen of the Apocalypse. I then did another test using the same loose formation and got destroyed by a full stack of javelinmen because they were unupgraded. Once they're upgraded they're indestructible. I think it would make sense to prevent them from being upgraded. After all, upgrading scholarii wouldn't make sense as that would probably mean a switch to plate armor or some fantasy unit.

Genoese crossbowmen are completely useless against them. It's definitely better to use javelins.

And no, I will not test my Scholarii with their backs turned. That's just stupid since I'm only testing for playability against human opponents and even the worst players don't keep them idle as long as I've done.

Anyways, some screenshots:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I had to engage in melee against javelinmen who ran out of ammo since the AI would start attacking my units.

Distance from javelinmen and my idle cavalry.
Easiest heroic victory ever.



Test 2 Default Scholarii (no upgrades)



Test 3: 4 Units of Fully Upgraded Scots Pike Militia to Combat 2 Units Scholarii (Note that I only use 2 units Scholarii as that was the limit for my multiplayer battles; also both units from high period)

I charge head-on to give AI the advantage.


Victory for the default cav.

Test 4: 1 Unit Fully Upgraded Noble Pikemen and 3 Units of Fully Upgraded Heavy Pike Militia (Scotland vs the Apocalypse)



Pathetic Scottish routing like the they are!

[k/t]

Use Pike Militia overlapped with Halberd Militia. Until you get those, try axe- or mace-equipped units. Put a crappy unit in front to take the charge, then attack with two-handed axemen.

The Scholarii armour upgrade isn't full plate, it's Improved Metallurgy.

Right now Late Professionals are way too common, but the next RR/RC reduces their replenishment speed as well as the replenishment speed/pool sizes of cavalry.

[misterbull]

Use Pike Militia overlapped with Halberd Militia. Until you get those, try axe- or mace-equipped units. Put a crappy unit in front to take the charge, then attack with two-handed axemen.

The Scholarii armour upgrade isn't full plate, it's Improved Metallurgy.

Right now Late Professionals are way too common, but the next RR/RC reduces their replenishment speed as well as the replenishment speed/pool sizes of cavalry.

I can't control the AI. But, I'll try I test where the AI controls the scholarii. It will probably work as long as the AI doesn't do something stupid.

Edit: That worked.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Marcvs Antonivs]

I have to agree that they are a little overpowered. I've seen this argument over and over and always with the same explanation: 'It's historical'. Well it may be, but you have to find some balance too, you can't sacrifice too much gameplay for historical accuracy, and besides I really doubt that they could chop off thousands and thousands of soldiers with so many little kills in melee battle! Oh well

Anyways, the best way to stop them is of course sending axes/halberds/pikes against them and try to get javelins or archers shooting at their backs, but even still it's quite difficult to kill them, specially when playing with nations that don't make much use of axes and only have decent pikemen/axemen later on. Archers don't work as well as javelinmen, and many factions cannot afford javelinmen as mercenaries in their regions (specially Hungary).

[Lugiahua]

since they are the strongest cavalry unit man to man.

I beg the different, I think it's French Lancer, HRE Gothic Knight or Polish Guards.

[misterbull]

I beg the different, I think it's French Lancer, HRE Gothic Knight or Polish Guards.

I ran tests. I think Lancers beat Gothic Knights handily, but always lose to Scholarii. I haven't tested Polish Guards, but they look weak. Mamluks also lose to Scholarii.

You can beg to differ, but basing it on simple AI maneuvers in single player campaign doesn't do much.

[Ichon]

You don't have to test to the rear if you don't want but even a good human player is going to have trouble allowing absolutely no flanking fire. That will not make as much difference for Scholari as others since they have only 2 shield but every little bit helps. Thats a 5% difference which might kill them 1 or 2 volleys earlier. How do charges do in multi? Since its quite easy to charge the AI and Scholari are quite a bit slower... seems as long as you can have 1 more heavy cavalry than there is Scholari their slower speed would make them vulnerable.

[Gogolometro]

First is wrong to play on a field with infantry versus cavalry. Any cavalry.
Is not a tip is a basic rule. You send some marines versus Leopard 2?

Second thing, you must think about scolari like these, the armor upgrades come very late. That mean simulation is a bit wrong. I have problem against scolari only at 1100-1200. Even then I can win if I can prepare. Scolari are a joke compared with sith cavalri of athanatoi.

Ok. Let fix your problem. You need condition. So no deployment on field, you need trees, a ravine, a ditch, river, some rocks or elevation. All make cavalry to reduce their power.

Second, never face them with one type of unit. Even two types are wrong. Imagine the powerfull scutatoi alone, are not enough to beat them.

3 factions meet them on battlefield and all have the power to beat them if you do the right coices, turks, hungarians and venetians. If it looks turks have weaker units against scolari thing second time, a combo of fari cavalry, saracen militia, turkish archers/javelins, turkish bodyguards and some ottoman infatry and nafftuns will deal easy 2 units of scolari. The key is diversity.

Venetians have real problems with byzantines, especially versus athanoi and scolari before 1200. But even then you can beat them.
The right choice is this, some pavise spearmans, macemans mercenaries, pesante archers/fanteria pesante, pavise gunners militia, some cavalry to brake their charge. Merchant cavalry will do this job at cheap price.
One unit of twohanders swordmans from swab lands will be very usefull once the scolari are keep in melee.

Keep in mind, never atack a cavary army on plains, never! Never use one type unit versus cavalry. Even pikes are useless versus heavy armored cavalry. hey must be backuped with halebards, arbalesters/javelins/gunner. In this combo only a great numbers of cavalry can win.

So no scottish pikes versus scolari. Is enough a crap militia pike units, some halebards and some gunners.
In fact like Ichon and many said, gunners are probably the best unit on SS. Try them versus Janissaries or Rittenbrunders. Will be stunned.

[Gogolometro]

I done a test myself to make of example of what can happend.
The enemy deployed 2 units of scolary, 1 of athanatoi, 1 of latinikon, 1 of proinari.

My army was not great, and most of them militia. No armor.

The victory was an average one, but enemy lose almost all units, only 1/4 scolari survive and retreat in panic. They got a general, me a captain. I fight on plaines, not an elevation or better place for infantry.

Happy wars second time. Ah, was vh/VH settings of custom, so all will be clear they got bonus.

[misterbull]

I done a test myself to make of example of what can happend.
The enemy deployed 2 units of scolary, 1 of athanatoi, 1 of latinikon, 1 of proinari.

My army was not great, and most of them militia. No armor.

The victory was an average one, but enemy lose almost all units, only 1/4 scolari survive and retreat in panic. They got a general, me a captain. I fight on plaines, not an elevation or better place for infantry.

Happy wars second time. Ah, was vh/VH settings of custom, so all will be clear they got bonus.

I use huge unit sizes and medium default AI (no bonuses).

Anyways, you won, but having that many units and winning probably required tactics which the AI fails to do. I was only testing the toughness of units because I can win battles with militia against the AI easily.

I'll test Ritterbruder + Burgher Pikemen combo to see if that works better than 4 units of handgunners.

[ksenagos]

Imo...Scolarii are tough alright but if you see the stats Lancers are better and when i say stats i also include weapon delay and everything.And in my battles Lancers vs Scolarii share victories depending whether i control Scolarii or the ai
Gothics also are better than scolarii they only lack in numbers...at a battle of 62vs62(Gothic vs scolarii, changed their numbers through unit description)Gothics are the undisputed champions.So in one vs one the heavy cavalry champion is a Gothic knight
You gonna reply that scolarii are available from start and they replenish in 2 turns.I have downloaded the Teutonic fix and it included small changes in the the edb.Now Scolarii even with rr disabled are recruit-able after 1200(fourth laternal) and they replenish every 10 turns(lancers still take 2 turns to replenish).But on the other hand Byzantines only have scolarii as a really strong unit.

So the question is: are Scolarii the champion for the Cavalry vs Cavalry title?(Gothic knights are the best no question about it when they have equal numbers) or which country deploys the best cavalry?(Imo France or Poland both for their availability and strength)

[muller227]

Imo...Scolarii are tough alright but if you see the stats Lancers are better and when i say stats i also include weapon delay and everything.And in my battles Lancers vs Scolarii share victories depending whether i control Scolarii or the ai
Gothics also are better than scolarii they only lack in numbers...at a battle of 62vs62(Gothic vs scolarii, changed their numbers through unit description)Gothics are the undisputed champions.So in one vs one the heavy cavalry champion is a Gothic knight
You gonna reply that scolarii are available from start and they replenish in 2 turns.I have downloaded the Teutonic fix and it included small changes in the the edb.Now Scolarii even with rr disabled are recruit-able after 1200(fourth laternal) and they replenish every 10 turns(lancers still take 2 turns to replenish).But on the other hand Byzantines only have scolarii as a really strong unit.

So the question is: are Scolarii the champion for the Cavalry vs Cavalry title?(Gothic knights are the best no question about it when they have equal numbers) or which country deploys the best cavalry?(Imo France or Poland both for their availability and strength)

This matches my own tests on these units, the Gothics are very tough but usually unless I mess up my unit whatever it is can win. I like playing the ERE, but have seriously turned down their replenishmnet and upped their costs so I don't cheat early on. In fighting them I have found early on various light lancers are their bane if a half decent spear unit can hold them up. Turhagut and Mamluks both with with ap melee (maces) hurt them pretty bad. They are a very powerful unit but they have limitations. And since the only other decent heavy Cav for ERE fairly early on is the very expensive Latinkon when compared to equivalent units I don't really have a problem with them. The loss of the AC_Spear_Bonus which was totally out of hand IMO, in RR/RC I think makes for most of the Scholarii hate. Early on they seem far more formidable than later by the time the Mongols show.

[misterbull]

This matches my own tests on these units, the Gothics are very tough but usually unless I mess up my unit whatever it is can win. I like playing the ERE, but have seriously turned down their replenishmnet and upped their costs so I don't cheat early on. In fighting them I have found early on various light lancers are their bane if a half decent spear unit can hold them up. Turhagut and Mamluks both with with ap melee (maces) hurt them pretty bad. They are a very powerful unit but they have limitations. And since the only other decent heavy Cav for ERE fairly early on is the very expensive Latinkon when compared to equivalent units I don't really have a problem with them. The loss of the AC_Spear_Bonus which was totally out of hand IMO, in RR/RC I think makes for most of the Scholarii hate. Early on they seem far more formidable than later by the time the Mongols show.

Well, it doesn't match my tests at all. I don't know how you guys test at all either. If it's based on campaign battles that doesn't say much.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Custom Battle NOT CAMPAIGN
Map: Grassy Plains (except for that close Lancer vs Scholarii battle)
AI: Medium No bonuses
Huge Unit Count
1 unit vs 1 unit except for Teutonic combo
EDU changed for Gothic Knights to 82 Gothic horsemen vs 82 Scholarii horsemen

Test 1:
Map: Hilly Map (forget the name)
81 Lancers + 1 default Captain vs 82 Scholarii + 1 default Captain
no upgrades at all
2 Lines Lancers vs 3 Lines Scholarii
2 lines = more surround




The general's dead, I should win.


1 v 1


Last man standing.

Test 2:
Map: Grassy Plains
81 Lancers + 1 default Captain vs 82 Scholarii + 1 default Captain
no upgrades at all
2 Lines Lancers vs 3 Lines Scholarii
2 lines = more surround



Test 3:
Map: Grassy Plains
81 Lancers + 1 default Captain vs 82 Scholarii + 1 default Captain
no upgrades at all
2 Lines Scholarii vs 2 Lines Lancers
2 lines = more surround



Victory for the Empire!

Test 4:
Map: Grassy Plains
default Ritterbruders + Burgher Pikemen + default Captain vs 82 Scholarii + 1 default Captain
no upgrades at all
sandwich as suggested; note this doesn't always work depending on your units




I win and it was cheaper.

Test 5:
Map: Grassy Plains
82 Gothic Knights + 1 default Captain vs 82 Scholarii + 1 default Captain
no upgrades at all; edited EDU for more Gothic Knights
2 Lines Gothic Knights vs 3 Lines Scholarii
2 lines = more surround





They should win, they have maces too!

Things are looking grim.

Clear defeat. I'll try 3 lines now.

Test 6:
Map: Grassy Plains
82 Gothic Knights + 1 default Captain vs 82 Scholarii + 1 default Captain
no upgrades at all; edited EDU for more Gothic Knights
3 Lines Gothic Knights vs 3 Lines Scholarii
3 lines = more support, less surround



Bloody hell.

Test 7:
Map: Grassy Plains
82 Gothic Knights + 1 default Captain vs 81 Lancers + 1 default Captain
no upgrades at all; edited EDU for more Gothic Knights
2 Lines Gothic Knights vs 2 Lines Lancers
2 lines = more surround

[k/t]

What do you mean by the spear_bonus thing? What did RR/RC do?