Evil Tweaks

[Twist of Cain]

I'm thinking about maybe doing a few changes here and there again. Not much, my time is usually very limited. Basically, I just want to tweak a few things to reduce playing as an orc faction and suddenly asking myself "Wait, why would an orc do this" such as when you find your governor releasing elf prisoners so he can encourage orc population growth via chivalry etc. Also, some minor stuff I had on my mind or laying around in my folders.

Here is what I had in mind, feel free to comment, whine or contribute. If I make any progress on this stuff, it'll go here.

1. A number of traits to shift the player focus for orc faction generals on dread over chivalry:
..a. A trait track reducing effectiveness and/or loyalty of orcs with chivalry.
..b. A trait track to make orc governors with dread viable, but reduce their usefulness as generals.
..c. Simple system so new generals have certain tasks to begin a track, somewhat like apprenticeships.
2. Moria_halberd's godawful slow movement speed upped a little bit.
3. Something to make an appreciable difference between snaga archers and goblin archers. Maybe a size increase on snaga archer units and reduced range.
4. All wargs put into "horde" formation.
5. Gundabad and MM generals on armored wargs.
6. Possibly some balance changes or small events.

Edit: Current version.

[KR153]

Great ideas, especially the trait track change. When I play a "evil" faction I want to act evil...
Chivalry? Prisoners? Hell to the No! I want their heads on spikes!
I also like the differentiation of generals/ gouvernors. DLV/BB has that and I like it very much. When you get a new general (coming of age) you can decide wether he becomes a general or gouvernor by putting him in a city or a castle. It takes effect in the following round.
Oh, and yes, generals should also be mounted. I always like to hunt down the fleeing cowards.

[smoesville]

1. A number of traits to shift the player focus for orc faction generals on dread over chivalry:
..a. A trait track reducing effectiveness and/or loyalty of orcs with chivalry.
..b. A trait track to make orc governors with dread viable, but reduce their usefulness as generals.
..c. Simple system so new generals have certain tasks to begin a track, somewhat like apprenticeships.

I have thought of something along these lines. Afaik it's possible to do an 'If' statement in the ancillary so, for example, tyrant for eriador is bad but for OoMM it gives plus pop growth.

2. Moria_halberd's godawful slow movement speed upped a little bit.

Yes, by the time they get to the battle one of three things has occurred; everyone else is dead/routed, there are none of them left because the enemy has archers and they've been sliced to pieces before reaching them or the orcs have won.

3. Something to make an appreciable difference between snaga archers and goblin archers. Maybe a size increase on snaga archer units and reduced range.

If you increase numbers maybe decrease the damage a little? For whichever one would (lorewise) be worse.

4. All wargs put into "horde" formation.
5. Gundabad and MM generals on armored wargs.
6. Possibly some balance changes or small events.

Pretty good ideas but not as important as the others Imo espescially the traits.

[Twist of Cain]

I have thought of something along these lines. Afaik it's possible to do an 'If' statement in the ancillary so, for example, tyrant for eriador is bad but for OoMM it gives plus pop growth.

In the traits? Interesting. I didn't realize that was possible. Thanks, I'll check that out. I guess I'll have to check out the exact effects of (max) chivalry/dread, especially in regards to city management.

If you increase numbers maybe decrease the damage a little? For whichever one would (lorewise) be worse.

If I balance numbers with damage, I would not need to change the price, or as much, I suppose. Reducing ammo would also be a way of reducing damage. Not sure what I will do yet, but they seem too much a +1 sidegrade of each other. I'll have to think about the mechanics, especially since I'd like to bump all orc units to 250, bar trolls and siege of course.

Pretty good ideas but not as important as the others Imo espescially the traits.

I agree, gameplay is more important. Still, I have just as much fun testing and playing around with stuff like this, I think, even if nothing ever gets done.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Twist of Cain]

Everything done, making an installer that will back up original files while I wait for our glorious overlord KK's permission to use the meager one texture file I edited armor onto, or not...

[Khales]

Sounds nice. The evil factions definitely deserve more attention.

There are a lot of events and special units for the good factions but too few for the evil factions.

[smoesville]

One thing that i think would be worthwhile is making a dunlending BG unit (could just use the existing unit models) for the Dunlending generals of Isengard. A unique model for the strat map for those two generals would be nice too. With the permission of Frome it could be easily done afaik, and would give a better feel for Isengard at the start without adding a new faction, which imho doesn't quite fit as a power compared to the rest, at best it should be a protectorate.

[Twist of Cain]

One thing that i think would be worthwhile is making a dunlending BG unit (could just use the existing unit models) for the Dunlending generals of Isengard.

Hmm, I'll take a look at that.

guys is it possible in vanilla tatw to spawn-adopt casual but specific BGs from specific settlements...??

Maybe with some fancy scripting, but not easily, I think.

...Increased 'storage' for evil troops? They can keep only two or three orc/snaga troops on hand in the unit pool. I'll admit things like Trolls might not need it, but it'd be a way to show how populous they are without messing too much with balance(since they're still capped by recruitment slots.) Should you have a few turns notice, thousands of goblins can be rallied to the defence.

I thought about adding a late-tier building at some point for the misty mountain range factions which would have a bonus that did something similar.

[Yonan]

This would add some much needed diversification to playstyle, and make the factions much more orcy. I'd especially like dread (or orcs in general) to be viable orc-governors. Orcs should breed like rabbits.

[Twist of Cain]

No word yet from our illustrious and no doubt busy overlord KK on using the modified warg texture... soooo, although work is in full swing again, if I can find time, I will redo the install file with only the text changes (which is 90% anyway) and up that later tonight. Warg bodyguards will still be in, but only the rider will appear as armored, as there is no in-game alternative skin for wargs themselves. Then if I ever hear back about the texture, I will update things. Unless I get more time and feel frisky enough to make a new warg myself which is unlikely.

Here is what we have so far. Orc generals are considered for purposes of this mod to be any generals of Mordor, Isengard, OotMM and OoG. Much of the following is accomplished through traits.



1. A simple two traits for orc leaders, allowing them to specialize in governor vs general.

2. Orc nation generals who slip up in their evil ways and do 'chivalric' things will have things a bit harder. They will also be able to 'atone,' temporarily or permanently.

3. Warg general bodyguards for OotMM and OoG.

4. Two actions in the game will result in orcs taking slave trains. They are temporary, have different uses and duration depends on size and wether the good guys happen to attack the army herding them along.

5. All orc melee units under "snaga" size have for the most part been bumped up in size. Upkeep costs have increased proportionately, purchase costs increased by the flat upkeep increase. If you are playing against AI orc nations, this might affect game difficulty to some degree, since I have not yet tweaked the scripted 'free' stacks to reflect this increase in some unit sizes.

6. All warg and snaga type units (including general bodyguard wargs) are now horde formation and tweaked slightly.

7. Chivalry will be less effective at growing towns for orcs, but I hope one of the new tweaks will change the dynamic of doing this for orc nations.

8. Halberd and pike unit speed penalty has been brought closer to normal across the board.

[Yonan]

1. Governor vs General traits for orc leaders, allowing them to specialize.
7. Chivalry will be less effective at growing towns for orcs, but I hope one of the new tweaks will change the dynamic of doing this for orc nations.

This would be a great change to settlement management.

2. Orc nation generals who slip up in their evil ways and do 'chivalric' things will have some additional obstacles. They will also be able to 'atone,' temporarily or permanently.
4. Two actions in the game will result in orcs taking slave trains. They are temporary, have different uses and duration depends on size and something else.

Good general orcy changes. Slave trains sounds promising, hope you can implement it well.

3. Warg general bodyguards for OotMM and OoG.
5. All orc melee units under "snaga" size have for the most part been bumped up in size. Upkeep costs have increased proportionately to maintain balance, purchase costs have increased by the flat upkeep increase. If you are playing against AI orc nations, this might affect game difficulty to some degree, since I have not yet tweaked the scripted 'free' stacks to reflect this increase in some unit sizes.
6. All warg and snaga type units (including general bodyguard wargs) are now horde formation and tweaked slightly.

Great general unit changes, I especially like the increase in unit size and horde formation. Much more orcy ; )
Actually, warg bodyguards would be good too. Was playing OotMM recently, and the generals were sadly very underwhelming. 50-70 orc infantry as a bodyguard was pretty weak. 250 heavy infantry as a bodyguard might preserve the orciness, but wargs would probably be better for gameplay.

[KnightsTemplar]

This would be a great change to settlement management.

Good general orcy changes. Slave trains sounds promising, hope you can implement it well.

Great general unit changes, I especially like the increase in unit size and horde formation. Much more orcy ; )
Actually, warg bodyguards would be good too. Was playing OotMM recently, and the generals were sadly very underwhelming. 50-70 orc infantry as a bodyguard was pretty weak. 250 heavy infantry as a bodyguard might preserve the orciness, but wargs would probably be better for gameplay.

The max number for BG unit is 75.
Plus the 'captain' units, it can go up to 77+1 though.

[Noobio]

guys is it possible in vanilla tatw to spawn-adopt casual but specific BGs from specific settlements...?? as in dunland bg in dunland hills ,as smoesville said above..
till now , i just gave him a dunland spearmen BG by just changing the first entry in descr_strat..

same thing for orcs mounted on wargs gens...ah and a suggestion...give moria's FL an archer BG

[Bloodly]

...Increased 'storage' for evil troops? They can keep only two or three orc/snaga troops on hand in the unit pool. I'll admit things like Trolls might not need it, but it'd be a way to show how populous they are without messing too much with balance(since they're still capped by recruitment slots.) Should you have a few turns notice, thousands of goblins can be rallied to the defence.

[A Goon of Sparta]

I like the armoured warg idea. i thing wargs need redone anyway.

[Twist of Cain]

Ok, to try this, unpack the attached file into your mod directory, ie "TATW" (or if you use Steam, whatever folder you chose, like 'americas') then run the ETInstaller.bat file. Done. If you don't like it, run the ETUninstaller.bat file and if Jesus doesn't hate you and the stars are aligned, it will make your TATW back to normal.

This is probably incompatible with every other single submod out there, and is 98% likely to destroy your TATW installation, set your house on fire, kill your family and make your pets explode in a shower of gore just before you die of severe internal hemorrhaging. I take absolutely no responsibility beyond having a gleeful sense of amusement about your impending demise.

Oh, a change I put in not mentioned above: Heights on the strat map are flattened a bit, because I was sick of having to constantly play "peek-a-boo" in the misty mountains with units hiding behind the steep inclines.

Also, I'll be playtesting this some tonight and monitoring this thread in case anything here causes problems. Mostly so I can laugh at you.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Edit: Removed upload, v3 is current

[Khales]

Alright i´ll check this out. Time to whip some maggots into shape.

[Twist of Cain]

I might have made the tradeoff for the general track a bit too harsh.

Somewhat more detailed mechanics ahead, don't read if you wanna discover things on your own.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Different orcs will want to use slaves for different purposes. Governors will save them in the field and use them in a settlement. In this case they should have a huge impact on city growth. Generals will use them up in the field and save them if they are in a city. In this case they should have a huge impact (iirc) on morale and reducing orc losses.

There are different sizes of slave caravans. You can increase them by executing enough prisoners enough times in a row, but exterminating population on any settlement once will bring them to maximum immediately. Sizes will shrink at different speeds depending on where the general is. Losing battles will also make them shrink.

Until they have specialized as governor or general (second tier) none of your generals will manage to take slaves.

There are two tiers of specialization. The second one is permanent. (In theory you should be able to turn the training around at the point of the first tier, but I might have screwed this up. Will look at it. Until then: Staying in a castle or city with full movement specializes as governor. Moving around and ending the turn outside of castles and cities make the orc specialize as a general.)

Orc generals with chivalry will get a two tier trait which makes them increase squalor and causes them to be more likely to get murdered, based on amount of chivalry.

This trait can be lost permanently by gaining a certain amount of dread. The more chivalry they had, the more dread they will need to make their fellow orcs stop despising them. Joining an invasion will cause them to lose the trait until the invasion is over, at which point it will return again if they still have sufficient chivalry.

Edit: I see the wrong slave caravans are also being awarded. Meh. Will fix. Changing from one specialization track to the other also needs some tweaking.

Woops, caravans are right, just had a wrong description for one of the size levels.

[Twist of Cain]

Updated: Decreased the penalty for orc warlord trait. Fixed the slave caravan description. Not sure why switching specializations before they become permanent doesn't seem to work right, but not a big deal. Just make sure to put them on the right track immediately. Again, unzip in mod directory and run the ETInstall.bat file to overwrite. Should not require a new game. For that matter, you can probably load any old game from before.

Edit: Removed upload, v3 is current.

[smoesville]

Looks like the unit entry for the mount is missing, could be something as simple as a spelling/case error.