China's industrialisation is good for democracy

[CiaranG]

I believe that china's industrialisation shall lead to the downfall of it's dictatorship by this logic.

industrialisation > wealth > free time > thinking > opinion > democracy
> media > information ^

and having a democratic super power in asia shall encourage protest and uprising for democracy in the middle east.

What is your opinion

[vikingsiddhu]

There are many logical faults with such an argument.

First:

-Industrialization leads to wealth, but only for a few, not all.
-Free Time? I doubt china's peasants have any time, especially when they have to walk hours to go to a school
-Thinking? You see the latest news, the goverment doesn't want them to think for themselves.

I would agree with you that the fall of it's dictatorship is inevitable, however it would not occur because of industrialisation .

[ChineseManchurian]

There are many logical faults with such an argument.

First:

-Industrialization leads to wealth, but only for a few, not all.
-Free Time? I doubt china's peasants have any time, especially when they have to walk hours to go to a school
-Thinking? You see the latest news, the goverment doesn't want them to think for themselves.

I would agree with you that the fall of it's dictatorship is inevitable, however it would not occur because of industrialisation .

If you can help us to remove all the mountains, plz do, the students need help :laughing:

[Major König]

There are many logical faults with such an argument.

First:

-Industrialization leads to wealth, but only for a few, not all.
-Free Time? I doubt china's peasants have any time, especially when they have to walk hours to go to a school
-Thinking? You see the latest news, the goverment doesn't want them to think for themselves.

I would agree with you that the fall of it's dictatorship is inevitable, however it would not occur because of industrialisation .

I agree with this. But with so much influence by western culture on the east, and the enourmous number of products provided by industry for the populous, leading to a better standard of life, I think democracy is bound to come out of it. But i'm speaking of the popilation of the city's. I'm sure chinese peasants will have a longtime before they ever see a pair of nike's.

[GambleFish]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45627
Good article and info - observe. :wink:

I believe it is inevitable - there will be a revolution in China. Hopefully democratic, but that's a bit unlikely. Probably just a control with a few more rights etc. Which is a good step forward.

[The Fish]

I also think that the fall of the current Chinese government would cause massive economic problems for that country (and for those world economies which rely on it, which is most of them). The current Chinese economic miracle is so managed and controlled by the Chinese govt. that a large-scale domestic revolution would effectively stall development for a significant amount of time. This is why some investors are getting a little worried about long-term investments in China. They're still investing, but doing so with a wary eye on the future.

[internationalist]

I believe that china's industrialisation shall lead to the downfall of it's dictatorship by this logic.

industrialisation > wealth > free time > thinking > opinion > democracy
> media > information ^

and having a democratic super power in asia shall encourage protest and uprising for democracy in the middle east.

What is your opinion

Ok. First off, human "progress" is not linear, industrialization leads to lopsided wealth, and would probably lead to a popular revolution before "free time" for the vast majority of China's ridiculously poor population. Who says "opinion" leads to democracy?

[Lee1026]

Industrialization does tend to make the rich richer, but at the end of the day, the poor is being paid much more then when it started - compare British wages in 1790 vs. 1890.

Also, if I read the stituation correct, it will end up being something akin to the British movement toward democracy; no revolutions, just a slow gradual evolution toward it so slow that you can barely tell that it is moving. The Chinese have no desire for a revolution; they had far too many of them. And the scars from past revolutions will not fade for at least another 2 generations.

[hellheaven1987]

Mmm... But don't forget why people supported CCP in beginning, because they belief CCP could bring them out from poor. If CCP fails this object, surely it would loss the support of people.

[Erik]

Also, if I read the stituation correct, it will end up being something akin to the British movement toward democracy; no revolutions, just a slow gradual evolution toward it so slow that you can barely tell that it is moving.

Thats also what I think.

I even suspect the CCP wants to slowly move towards democracy themselves.
Don't they have local elections already?

[Lee1026]

Of course, they are doing nearly too well with that goal.....

[Lee1026]

If you have a rather loose idea of election, then, yes.

[Primvs Sextvs Loverlord]

China has seen such unprecedented growth not because of democracy but because of what many would call a dictatorship or socialism or whatever. I believe that China still has a long way to go before it can become a democracy.

You people must understand that democracy is not a shoe that comes in "one size fits all".

[Jan Kazimierz]

How unfortunate that this Chinese economic growth can also very cleary compose their massive fall..

The chinese have a vast labour economy, an have a annual growth that makes some investors horny. But unfortunatly the Yuan is also, like Argentina in the past, coupled to the Dollar. So if their would be a major economical crisis in the US, the Chinese would feel the pain. Partly because a coupled valuta, partly beacause the chinese invest billions into the US (and not vice-versa)..

Also the growth of the Chinese Economy must stay in control..
It rather tends to leap out of control in these days, and the government has, if I correctly recall, taken meusures to slow down the growth to keep things in hand..

But, apart from these things, China has a great future to come, and it's economic growth will clearly help the Chinese on a more moderate communistic road. It certainly is a better place to invest in than the US or Europe..

[leeho730]

Germany was extensively industralised in 30's.
USSR was extensively industralised in 50's.
Iran and Iraq were extensively industralised in 70's, before Iran-Iraq war.

[Lee1026]

Well, please name me a few modern countries that did last a while as modern nations that were industrialized.
Democracy => Industralization.

[leeho730]

Well, please name me a few modern countries that did last a while as modern nations that were industrialized.
Democracy => Industralization.

South Korea, extensively industralized in 70's. Had brutal dictatorship for almost 20 years after that.
North Korea, extensively industralized in 60's. 'Nuff said.
Iraq, extensively industralized till late 70's. Democracy? Ha!

There are many examples of democracy BEFORE industralization.
Chile in 1970.
Haiti elected its own president in early 1900's.
US had presidential election well before industralization (hell, what do you think the reason North and South had war?).
NZ had democracy well before 1900's (we're still not industralized).
Etc, etc.

Germany started its industralization extensively after Hilter's reign. USSR started its industralization extensively during Stalin's reign. South and North Korean started its industraliztion programs during dictatorship.

See, democracy has got nothing to do with industralization. Industralization is a government (whether democratic or not) policy.

[Lee1026]

I said in the modern world for a reason, you know, in the modern world, democracy with out industarilization just would work.
Hence, the only example that you really have there is Chile. Now, let us compare the democracies that were established in industrilized nations - FRG, South Korea, Rep of China, Spain, Czech republic, India, Russia, the list goes on and on.
Speaking of Germany it industrialized mainly in the latter half of 19th century. It just so happens that it is the same period in which Germany was moving toward democracy.
Now, in the event you are not familiar with Chinese history, they already tried once to establish a democracy in China, and it failed miserablely. Why? Economical reasons.

P.S. Chile is a industalized nation. Wikipedia says that they have a GDP of 11000 per person. That is more then enough to qualify them as a industalized nation.

Like I said, Industalization <= Democracy.

[leeho730]

I said in the modern world for a reason, you know, in the modern world, democracy with out industarilization just would work.
Hence, the only example that you really have there is Chile. Now, let us compare the democracies that were established in industrilized nations - FRG, South Korea, Rep of China, Spain, Czech republic, India, Russia, the list goes on and on.
Speaking of Germany it industrialized mainly in the latter half of 19th century. It just so happens that it is the same period in which Germany was moving toward democracy.
Now, in the event you are not familiar with Chinese history, they already tried once to establish a democracy in China, and it failed miserablely. Why? Economical reasons.

P.S. Chile is a industalized nation. Wikipedia says that they have a GDP of 11000 per person. That is more then enough to qualify them as a industalized nation.

Like I said, Industalization <= Democracy.

How modern are you? How modern China is? Do you have a set guideline, like "Being modern" has to be in their 70's or better? You only like the example that you like. No, industralization doesn't lead to democracy. Haiti people, miserably poor, still managed to have an election. How about Palestinians? They're bloody poor (population below poverty line: 60%) but still manages to have an election. China people are not properly motivated to have democracy and I doubt industralization alone is enough.

[Lee1026]

In the event you have not realized, the only working existing democracys are in industialized nations now. Apparently, the facts say that in 2006, you can not have a unindustialized nation with democracy.

P.S. I am awaiting a few example of existing democracy that is not industalized.....