Saxon/Viking culture

[Ubermomo]

If someone has already answerd this question then, my bad.

If i remeber correctly the Vikings conquered northen england (lancashire, Yorkshire etc), they also probably mixed with the local population and created their own mixed culture. So my question is this, will the northern Saxons, Southern Scots maybe have a viking influence in their traits, ancillaries, soldiers, navy and even biuldings.

[Celtichugs123]

I'm afriad the game engine doesn't really allow for this. Well, not perfectly anyway. But you must remember it takes years, centuries even for assimilation and notable culture-mix to occur. The Danelaw - for example - did not last long enough for such a thing to happen. Modern York was renamed from it's Anglo-Saxon name to a North Germanic word (i cannot remember what they called it) and obviously Norse and Danish influances happened, but these were more law, language or minor changes.

That said, this is somthing we may consider for later releases for other Cultures and Factions. But Northern England will not be one of them - as although Viking customs and old Germanic customs where brought 'back' to Northern England, it did not last long enough, I feel, to warrant creating whole new building models etc to be shown in-game. Anciliaries and traits on the other hand are considered in the Mod.

[Coeur de Lion]

I'm afriad the game engine doesn't really allow for this. Well, not perfectly anyway. But you must remember it takes years, centuries even for assimilation and notable culture-mix to occur. The Danelaw - for example - did not last long enough for such a thing to happen. Modern York was renamed from it's Anglo-Saxon name to a North Germanic word (i cannot remember what they called it) and obviously Norse and Danish influances happened, but these were more law, language or minor changes.

The Romans knew York as Eboracum, the Saxons knew it as Eoferwic, and the Danes knew it as Jorvic. Seriously, if you live in the UK or if you ever visit England, I strongly suggest a visit to York. It is one of the few places you can see layers of history in plain sight, there is even a tower still standing that formed part of the Roman walls of the city. Simply stunning.

Back on topic, I think Celtichugs is right that the only thing that would really change about the society at the time was who was garrisoning the towns and strong-points. Its not as though all the Saxons in Northumbria/Mercia suddenly renounced Christianity and began worshipping Odin. The people pretty much remained the same. Admittedly, the Danes and Norse certainly left their mark on northern England, but culturally, they were always the occupiers; and ultimately, they probably gave up more of their culture than the Saxons did, what with the conversion to Christianity etc

[Celtichugs123]

Back on topic, I think Celtichugs is right that the only thing that would really change about the society at the time was who was garrisoning the towns and strong-points. Its not as though all the Saxons in Northumbria/Mercia suddenly renounced Christianity and began worshipping Odin. The people pretty much remained the same. Admittedly, the Danes and Norse certainly left their mark on northern England, but culturally, they were always the occupiers; and ultimately, they probably gave up more of their culture than the Saxons did, what with the conversion to Christianity etc

I love it when I try and say somthing and can't get it across and somone comes along and says it 10X better than I did!

[A_Dane]

The Romans knew York as Eboracum, the Saxons knew it as Eoferwic, and the Danes knew it as Jorvic. Seriously, if you live in the UK or if you ever visit England, I strongly suggest a visit to York. It is one of the few places you can see layers of history in plain sight, there is even a tower still standing that formed part of the Roman walls of the city. Simply stunning.

Back on topic, I think Celtichugs is right that the only thing that would really change about the society at the time was who was garrisoning the towns and strong-points. Its not as though all the Saxons in Northumbria/Mercia suddenly renounced Christianity and began worshipping Odin. The people pretty much remained the same. Admittedly, the Danes and Norse certainly left their mark on northern England, but culturally, they were always the occupiers; and ultimately, they probably gave up more of their culture than the Saxons did, what with the conversion to Christianity etc

All the more reason to burn and pillage them for infinity!

[mBratach Glas]

I'm afriad the game engine doesn't really allow for this. Well, not perfectly anyway. But you must remember it takes years, centuries even for assimilation and notable culture-mix to occur. The Danelaw - for example - did not last long enough for such a thing to happen. Modern York was renamed from it's Anglo-Saxon name to a North Germanic word (i cannot remember what they called it) and obviously Norse and Danish influances happened, but these were more law, language or minor changes.

That said, this is somthing we may consider for later releases for other Cultures and Factions. But Northern England will not be one of them - as although Viking customs and old Germanic customs where brought 'back' to Northern England, it did not last long enough, I feel, to warrant creating whole new building models etc to be shown in-game. Anciliaries and traits on the other hand are considered in the Mod.

What would be a good example of this then ?. I suppose the Norman Conquest of Ireland had a significant affect on the Irish identity one of the prime examples being that they practically introduced the stone Castle outdating the Irish wood and earth fortifications.

Or how the Vikings brought Currency, roads ( Ie the Irish cities practically being isolated before hand ) and cross province trading to Ireland.

I`m sure there are more examples in other cultures that I am unaware of though

[Ubermomo]

Thanks guys for clearing that up for me, how long did Danelaw last anyway?

And if i remeber correctly again, there is a large stone Pillar or monolith called Ruddstone in Yorkshire that belongs to a dead Viking, apparently it was brought all the way from Denmark................but who honestly belives all stories hey

[Coeur de Lion]

Thanks guys for clearing that up for me, how long did Danelaw last anyway?

And if i remeber correctly again, there is a large stone Pillar or monolith called Ruddstone in Yorkshire that belongs to a dead Viking, apparently it was brought all the way from Denmark................but who honestly belives all stories hey

Ah I've not heard of this, where is it? It'd be great to go and see it

I believe this is what you may be referring to, they seem to think its pre-historic rather than viking
http://www.ancient-wisdom.co.uk/englandrudstone.htm

[Ubermomo]

Yeah thats it, never believed that stuff anyway about if being draged from Denmark

[A_Dane]

Thanks guys for clearing that up for me, how long did Danelaw last anyway?

And if i remeber correctly again, there is a large stone Pillar or monolith called Ruddstone in Yorkshire that belongs to a dead Viking, apparently it was brought all the way from Denmark................but who honestly belives all stories hey

If you don't count Cnut the greats reign, then if memory serves me it was about a 100 years

There's probably something on Wikipedia but afraid i can't check it atm

[Coeur de Lion]

Here's the google earth of the Ruddstone, looks impressive! Might put it on my list of places to visit this summer.

[hekk]

I believe Anglo-Scandinavians did have a considerable influence in Northern England originally, but I think that their influence gradually dwindled after the Viking Age and with the events that took place afterwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North was a pretty brutal event perpetrated by the Normans, that quite likely had some lasting effects on the Anglo-Scandinavian population there.

[Ubermomo]

So will there be any effect on the type of buildings or units you can train if you have a stronger viking culture in a place like york or say a town in northen Ireland?

[Coeur de Lion]

I believe Anglo-Scandinavians did have a considerable influence in Northern England originally, but I think that their influence gradually dwindled after the Viking Age and with the events that took place afterwards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North was a pretty brutal event perpetrated by the Normans, that quite likely had some lasting effects on the Anglo-Scandinavian population there.

The effect of Viking occupation has actually been more lasting than I expected. Yorkshire is still organised into Ridings (North, West and East). A system started by the Vikings, who created Thryds which were divided into vapentaks. Indeed, I don't think York would be the city it was in Medieval times if it wasn't for the boom in trade provided by Viking occupation.

So will there be any effect on the type of buildings or units you can train if you have a stronger viking culture in a place like york or say a town in northen Ireland?

I imagine % culture will have a significant effect on what buildings/units you can create, I doubt they'd allow top level units to be recruited in newly conquered lands....I haven't seen that in a game since R:TW

EDIT:
Indeed A_Dane is right

Surely you mean M:TW2 vanilla? There was a cooldown on recruitment in newly conquerored cities, yes, but it was like 4-6 turns max..

[A_Dane]

The effect of Viking occupation has actually been more lasting than I expected. Yorkshire is still organised into Ridings (North, West and East). A system started by the Vikings, who created Thryds which were divided into vapentaks. Indeed, I don't think York would be the city it was in Medieval times if it wasn't for the boom in trade provided by Viking occupation.



I imagine % culture will have a significant effect on what buildings/units you can create, I doubt they'd allow top level units to be recruited in newly conquered lands....I haven't seen that in a game since R:TW

Surely you mean M:TW2 vanilla? There was a cooldown on recruitment in newly conquerored cities, yes, but it was like 4-6 turns max..

[Ubermomo]

I can see what you mean with not allowing top level units to be trained up, but what about north scotland and northern ireland, didnt they use vikings as mercenaries and also use vikings from the local population? i know they wouldnt have been the best trained warriors (more likely the raiders who found good land) but surely the would have used viking warriors in some form or another. any suggestions on how a possible "Last Kingdoms 2" could use the culture thing

[Furor_Mancunia]

Well - not too sure about the Danelaw not leaving much impact. The difference in accents between north and south England might be attributed to it's presence, with more nasal accents such as Liverpudlian, Yorkshire and my own Mancunian having roots in Scandinavian influence. In England there is also a socio-economic idea of a 'north-south divide', with northerners thought of as wild, ignorant savages and the southerners as soft weaklings who cannot take their ale. Remind you of anything?

Edit: come to think of it, the nickname for Liverpudlians, "scouse", comes from the name of a Danish/North German recipe, "Labskaas".

[Ubermomo]

'north-south divide', with northerners thought of as wild, ignorant savages and the southerners as soft weaklings who cannot take their ale. Remind you of anything?

.

Lol, that would make sense, my families from the north as well, from Lancashire.
We are a harder bunch then those from the south