A Dance With Dragons Discussion (spoilers. DO NOT ENTER UNTIL YOU HAVE FINISHED THE BOOK)

[Jaime Goldenhand]

I have not finished yet but I thought it would be best to make a thread for people to discuss the book once they finish. I hope to be contributing by midday tomorrow (5 hour energy and monsters galore = no sleep, just solid reading ). Enjoy the book everyone.
Edit: haven't finished but when Melisandre says "Then you know nothing, Jon snow." I shivered. They better explain what that freaking means ><

[Fulgrim88]

Hurr Durr. I think i'll start with some minor things, earlier in the Book, less of a spoiler and more of a discussion:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First of all, what do you think about the characters behaviour, chiefly Dany & Jon? During the book i came to realize again, just how young they really are. Dany, especially
She basically reaps the fruits of her naive actions & hopes now. Leaves a bitter taste, but still hats off to GRRM, because truth be told, it's only realistic. Slavers Bay is no place you can easily change.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What do you guys think about Essos? I was blown away by the description of the ancient Rhoynar Cities, which really send my mind wandering. Same with all the other sunken Empires over there. I think it's a very exotic & interesting continent, far more mystical than Westeros

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Favourite Characters so far, or, how have your favourite characters changed? I for one grow more and more fond of Victarion, simply because he's badass Favourite characters would still be Tyrion, Daenerys & Littlefinger though, even though the latter doesn't make an appearance. One guy that lost a great deal of respect is Jon Snow. He always had more of his father than was good for him (as in being a stubborn, honour bound fool), but he's now adding an unhealthy dose of rashness combined with an utter lack of cunning & tactfulness, surrounding himself with enemies with every move.
Spoilery:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sad to say, but in the end i would've stabbed him myself

A character that has gained some love would be Melisandre. I was surprised to have her become a PoV character at some point, and wonder wether GRRM will expand on that. Basically, she's just acting tough, but actually trying her best to aid what she believes to be Azor Ahai

[himself007]

I have to agree that Ramsay Snow's letter contains some lies. Let's be honest, Stannis' host at this point was so weak that it probably wouldn't have even lasted seven days of battle. Plus, Roose is too cautious to seek out Stannis in the snow. Once the infighting began, I bet he pulled back to the Dreadfort, realizing that it is better to let Stannis and his men starve and freeze while his are in relative comfort than it is to hold a bunch of ruins. Stannis is probably still alive, though his army is severely weakened by the storm.

He almost certainly has Mance though; I doubt he got away, and how could he know who he really was if he hadn't tortured him?

I was hoping to Manderly to bring help to Stannis, but i do not think that he had what it takes to do so....also, how can he have Mance? i do agree that he have him, but how? i mean Mance is a expert ranger. my only thought is that when Theon runs with Jeane, Mance appear to give help.

I mentioned that likely possibilty on page one. Does nobody follow the discussion?^^

You give rep by clicking on that small green (+) below somebodys name, next to the report button btw.

On page one everybody was hiding what they were saying because it was spoilers, so i did not appreciate those kind of people and jump to read the others. sorry for that.

Hurr Durr. I think i'll start with some minor things, earlier in the Book, less of a spoiler and more of a discussion:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

First of all, what do you think about the characters behaviour, chiefly Dany & Jon? During the book i came to realize again, just how young they really are. Dany, especially
She basically reaps the fruits of her naive actions & hopes now. Leaves a bitter taste, but still hats off to GRRM, because truth be told, it's only realistic. Slavers Bay is no place you can easily change.

Totally true, i mean. she came to a city that was like - and wanna change to *. what ? but nothing else to say about her thou.

About Jon, i'm really wandering if he had some other type of approach with the people around him, if it would have came to be different, but the only thing that come to my mind is how slow to understand a knew type of thing the people can be in Westeros or in any place, indeed.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What do you guys think about Essos? I was blown away by the description of the ancient Rhoynar Cities, which really send my mind wandering. Same with all the other sunken Empires over there. I think it's a very exotic & interesting continent, far more mystical than Westeros

thats why i liked grrm, we have a lot of world out there, not just Westeros, but i always think about how old he is and that he will die soon ¬¬

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Favourite Characters so far, or, how have your favourite characters changed? I for one grow more and more fond of Victarion, simply because he's badass Favourite characters would still be Tyrion, Daenerys & Littlefinger though, even though the latter doesn't make an appearance. One guy that lost a great deal of respect is Jon Snow. He always had more of his father than was good for him (as in being a stubborn, honour bound fool), but he's now adding an unhealthy dose of rashness combined with an utter lack of cunning & tactfulness, surrounding himself with enemies with every move.
Spoilery:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sad to say, but in the end i would've stabbed him myself

why you would do that to him? i mean, you are not of common birth, you understand the logical about the wights and night walkers, so even understanding that , would you stab him? but i agree with the fact the he was his father son.

i really love Tyrion, Tyrion > Jon > Davos

A character that has gained some love would be Melisandre. I was surprised to have her become a PoV character at some point, and wonder wether GRRM will expand on that. Basically, she's just acting tough, but actually trying her best to aid what she believes to be Azor Ahai

[Jaime Goldenhand]

I had not thought about Melisandre bringing back Jon but that seems likely to happen now.
@himself: you will not be able to give rep until you have 35 posts, or some other number, and been on for 2 weeks.

[toluas]

In order not to spoil the fun of those stumbling in:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Basically, I'd say, you feel Dany's and Jon's young age at almost every page of their chapters. Dany is pretty much covered in a way that seems plausible to me, whereas I'm not so sure with Jon. He's a bit too tough at times, while on the other hand acting like the boy he (actually) is.

As you said, slaver's bay's not Disneyland...neither is the wall. (A bit OT, but am I completely mistaken that Jon being the 998 LC, there HAS to be something going on with the magic "1000"; like him being replaced (LC #999) and coming back as No. 1000?)

Essos? Great, especially considering it's just the icing on the cake, as GRRM said, the series will stay Westeros-centered! Cannot say I'm a huge fan of the names GRRM came up, but who cares?

Characters? Series favs: Dany, Tyrion, Jon (and I do like the Cersei-chapters, though not herself). ADWD favs: Victarion, Griff, Dany, Ser Grandfather, and I'm developing a strong liking for Doran Martell's cunning.
Downside, as always: Bran, no fan of the ADWD Jon chapters and Tyrion's not a badass as I expected. Still no fan of Theon, as much as I'd want to feel compassionate.

[Trivmphator]

Big.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

THEY KILLED JON SNOW

[tugaguy]

Big.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

THEY KILLED JON SNOW

If that happens i will find George and punch he in the balls...

[Timur Amir]

If that happens i will find George and punch he in the balls...

and if he stays in Ghost the rest of the series, and never gets a new body?

[toluas]

Small.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

No, they didn't. Trust me.

[Fulgrim88]

Small.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

No, they didn't. Trust me.

Yeah, pretty sure they didn't.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Everything about the way it's written cries "not dead". My guess would be Melisandre. If a lazy runaway priest like Thoros knows the lifegiving trick, so does she. However, Jons days as Lord Commander are over. One can only hope that there isn't some sort of wildling/southron massacre going on after the stabbing

[Trivmphator]

Yeah, pretty sure they didn't.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Everything about the way it's written cries "not dead". My guess would be Melisandre. If a lazy runaway priest like Thoros knows the lifegiving trick, so does she. However, Jons days as Lord Commander are over. One can only hope that there isn't some sort of wildling/southron massacre going on after the stabbing

Short

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We'll find out in another 6 years

[Fulgrim88]

Short

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

We'll find out in another 6 years

Hah, sad truth. Makes me rue reading this book so fast. I hope GRRMs pace will improve due to all the hype about the series.
I've read his Dreamsongs-Antology, where he says that he's a big fan of producing TV-Shows.

I don't think we need to wrap everything in spoiler tags though, unless it actually spoils something from the book

[Trivmphator]

Hah, sad truth. Makes me rue reading this book so fast. I hope GRRMs pace will improve due to all the hype about the series.
I've read his Dreamsongs-Antology, where he says that he's a big fan of producing TV-Shows.

I don't think we need to wrap everything in spoiler tags though, unless it actually spoils something from the book

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I agree

[FrEob]

Short

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

We'll find out in another 6 years

Optimist.

[Fulgrim88]

Gotta love Roose. He's the perfect villain. Not raging mad like Ramsay, not plain evil, just cold and cunning. The guy has no feelings whatsoever. Bloody dangerous.

As for Tyrion, i can see why people are disappointed, but look at it this way: He just killed his father & forsake his family, forever loosing the people he wanted so hard to be accepted by. He learned that he surrendered his true love to rape. Small wonder he's deep in the cups at the beginning of the book. But i think towards the end, he regains some of his underdog coolness

[WinsingtonIII]

I don't think Jon Snow is dead, and I don't say that simply out of hoping that he's alive, I say it because if Martin kills him off, he loses his main POV character for the Wall and much of the North. Who would replace him? Melisandre? Asha? Someone new? I doubt it. None of the existing POVs are really good substitutes, and I don't see who would make a compelling new POV.

It is likely that he will no longer be Lord Commander, but that's a good thing, his chapters as LC are far worse than his previous chapters, and I think Martin's plan all along was not to keep him as Lord Commander for too long. It's possible that he won't even be Night's Watch anymore, but I get the feeling he will still be in the area of the Wall.

Plus, after the reaction to that letter, we know there is going to be blood and battle in the North, and I think Martin wants to showcase that through the POV of Snow.

[himself007]

I don't think Jon Snow is dead, and I don't say that simply out of hoping that he's alive, I say it because if Martin kills him off, he loses his main POV character for the Wall and much of the North. Who would replace him? Melisandre? Asha? Someone new? I doubt it. None of the existing POVs are really good substitutes, and I don't see who would make a compelling new POV.

It is likely that he will no longer be Lord Commander, but that's a good thing, his chapters as LC are far worse than his previous chapters, and I think Martin's plan all along was not to keep him as Lord Commander for too long. It's possible that he won't even be Night's Watch anymore, but I get the feeling he will still be in the area of the Wall.

Plus, after the reaction to that letter, we know there is going to be blood and battle in the North, and I think Martin wants to showcase that through the POV of Snow.

I do hope you are right, i really love Jon, and it really made me sad to read what had happen to him, of all the characters in the book he was the one that accomplished many thinks in order to restore the Night Watchers their long lost power (without the help of the Seven Kingdoms), and he had much to do indeed, for the wall , for the free people, for the realm, so it would be good to be alive, and when Tyrion dropped in the lake also fought that he was dead, and well... he was alive, thanks to our Lord Connigton.

But my point is, Hes dead. you may ask why. and i can tell you so, well, Benjen Stark may be alive, for the plot device Martin did not show him dead to us, although its not likely to happen. but he could be the new POV. but the main reason i do think that Jon is dead, it's because of the plot device that George uses, i mean nobody have too much plot armor, and that's the fun of it. the other reason would be that the writer could not come with any idea about how to show his true heritage (Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon) without making him so much protected, so after all he did to restore the wall, he dies, to make the most wanted coming of Daernerys needed, soon all the realm will be crushed and nobody will withstand the winter, mainly because the wall will be done for.

Also when i think about him going to "talk" with Ramsay, it did not feel right, if he wanted so, why the he let the chance to claim his Stark name? i mean, the hour to claim the North was with Stannis, not now. i hated that about him....

[krste]

I tink that he killed the boy Jon Snow for the man to be born. This being based on what Maester Aemon told Jon.

[Fulgrim88]

I'm afraid the scene isn't metaphorical

[Dux]

I'm afraid the scene isn't metaphorical

true, he really was stabbed, and not just once but four times.

Bowen must be an utter fool, I'm not talking about the act itself but of the moment it happens. Stabbing someone whose name was just cheered by a hell of a lot of armed angry wildlings isn't really a smart move. Tormund will not let this go unanswered.
I fear for a bloodbath at the wall, just as the Others arrive.

That letter form Ramsay Bolten came as a total surprise to me. The last we saw of Stannis was the arrival of the Braavosi banker with Theon at his camp. Then Jon Snow gets this letter, and we are to believe Stannis is dead? How could GRRM just kill him off like that? I would expect that something of that battle was shown, we have two POVs down there.

I just love Essos, I see plenty of material for a Slaverbay based submod when this mod is released.


The invasion of the golden company could be added to the main mod.