Conscripts in the Comitatenses?

[The_Nord]

I've been reading some about the late roman army (mainly osprey books) and I've come across some information that was a bit surprising, apperently there were conscripts in the comitatenses legios, as I've read the healthiest and strongest young men could be sent off to join the comitatenses, I was previously, under the impression that the comitatenses were a volunteer force, but it appears to have been a mix between conscripts and volunteers. Now, these conscripts (and the volunteers) were still equipped at the expense of the Roman state, am I correct? I'm talking mainly the 4th cent AD.

Also, I'd like to ask you if you have any information regarding the recruitment process for the legio palatinae and the auxilia palatinae.

P.S I considered posting this in the VV, but I've read other threads here on the forum and subforums and you guys have a serious amount of knowledge about the late roman army!

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Oh yeah, in the late empire most troops were volunteers or conscripted for any unit really. It used to be there was only conscription during times of crisis but it became hard to find recruits so they started conscripting. I think even today Military Service should be mandatory. You should have to serve at least 4 years Military Service anytime between the ages of 25 and 40. That way you can finish college at least.

[juvenus]

I've been reading some about the late roman army (mainly osprey books) and I've come across some information that was a bit surprising, apperently there were conscripts in the comitatenses legios, as I've read the healthiest and strongest young men could be sent off to join the comitatenses, I was previously, under the impression that the comitatenses were a volunteer force, but it appears to have been a mix between conscripts and volunteers. Now, these conscripts (and the volunteers) were still equipped at the expense of the Roman state, am I correct? I'm talking mainly the 4th cent AD.

Also, I'd like to ask you if you have any information regarding the recruitment process for the legio palatinae and the auxilia palatinae.

P.S I considered posting this in the VV, but I've read other threads here on the forum and subforums and you guys have a serious amount of knowledge about the late roman army!

yup, the conscripts were still present, although not as much as before.
they were "technically" equipped at the expense of the state but the equipment's price was deducted from their yearly salary-so in effect they paid for it.

as for the auxilia palatine, the very first unit of this kind, according to a German professor Michael Spiedel, was the Regii-recruited from a captured Alemmanii warband. later, however, the romans joined this core too. there are multiple unanswered questions about them. still, many believe the Romans were majority in those units.
Legion Palatine is pretty much the same as any commitatenses. they were just paid better and maybe had slightly better equipment cause they originally served under an emperor. decades later, everything was mixed up so the units of both type served together.

[The_Nord]

Another thing I've come across while reading on the subject of the late roman army, is that recently historians and such are questioning the theory that limitanei forces were poor soldiers, and that some evidence suggests that the limitanei could often handle small scale incursions on Roman territory and thus might've been quite experienced soldiers. What are your opinions of this? (I'll try to find where exactly I read this, as I dont like to throw statements around without sources.)

[wulfgar610]

and that some evidence suggests that the limitanei could often handle small scale incursions on Roman territory and thus might've been quite experienced soldiers.

They would have been well equipped enough and experienced enough to outsolder the bulk of Barbarian levies. But will not be as motivated as the field army.

[Dragases]

Another thing I've come across while reading on the subject of the late roman army, is that recently historians and such are questioning the theory that limitanei forces were poor soldiers, and that some evidence suggests that the limitanei could often handle small scale incursions on Roman territory and thus might've been quite experienced soldiers. What are your opinions of this? (I'll try to find where exactly I read this, as I dont like to throw statements around without sources.)

The best evidence for the combat effectiveness of the limitanei is the fact that emperors drafted them in the field armies for huge campaigns as pseudo comitatenses. Julian did this for his Persian campaign and Constantius III drafted most of the Gallic limitanei in his field army.

Even Justinian reintroduced them in North Africa as late as the 530s, after Belisarius had crushed the Vandals.

[juvenus]

...and Constantius III drafted most of the Gallic limitanei in his field army...

at last i understand where the Gallic limitanei went
always wondered how the Franks, Burgundians and others established themselves so easily in the eastern Gaul.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Limitanei were just as well trained as the comitatenses, but were simply trained to operate as garrison units and not a mobile field army. They were easily capable of handling small scale incursions.

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

I'd also argue that most of the Army Aetius brought to Chalons was probably Pseudocomitatenses (As Sidonius lists "Milites Romani" which coulr really be anything.)

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

Well, the franks were still more or less raiding parties until the 460s you must remember. But yes that's one of the reasons why. Also the Limitanei were probably eventually replaced somewhat.

[juvenus]

replaced where?in Gaul?after Constantine III withdrew them?

[Magister Militum Flavius Aetius]

More or less potentially, a lot of the frontier was still Roman and after Pseudocomitatenses went back to their posts after they were no longer needed in the field army.

[wulfgar610]

More or less potentially, a lot of the frontier was still Roman and after Pseudocomitatenses went back to their posts after they were no longer needed in the field army.

They never left their posts, they were simply stationary soldiers within the area controlled by a field army. They simply defended their province.

They have a role like "guard nuclear silo" or "guard city with armaments store", no matter what the field army was doing they might not have been able to leave their static posts.

[juvenus]

k, thanks.

[wulfgar610]

pseudo comitatensessimply means Limitanei that were under the control of a field army general, it doesn't mean they were actual comitatenses or mobile. To do so would mean giving them the same rate of pay as commitatenses for starters.

[juvenus]

pseudo comitatensessimply means Limitanei that were under the control of a field army general, it doesn't mean they were actual comitatenses or mobile. To do so would mean giving them the same rate of pay as commitatenses for starters.

no sh_t! ur lying!

[wulfgar610]

no sh_t! ur lying!

No, they did have to get the same "rate of pay" if they were inducted into the comitatenses which was 50% more. They were now "comitatenses" and no longer "Pseudocomitatenses".

Whether they did actually get paid in timely fashion is another matter entirely.

Similarly Comitatenses could be demoted to Limitanei, but none of this was to be taken lightly.