Crusades useless - priests and slow boats

[Djangoo]

1)
Usually I accompany my crusaders armies (on boats) with one or two priests at least to settle faster on the new ground.

Worked fine in 6.1/6.2.

Now if I sent the priests to the crusaders ship, it is slowed down to ~20% of its former speed.

That's pretty ridiculous if you think about it: "carefully! we have an old man on board, navigate the boat veeeeeeeeeeeery smooothly."

Am I doing it wrong or is this intended?


2)
Crusaders armies should not suffer from the extreme minus on morale, for being to far away from home.

In reality these guys have been eager to reach their destination and capture it.

Crusades were always fun, but now in 6.4 it's more a pain, you try to avoid due high costs and the fear of losing your generals (morale/loyality).

It's sad imo.

Crusaders should be rewarded with more boni (morale boni during the crusade, nice character traits for joining and reaching their desitination.
Otherwise the whole thing becomes pointless. (to not make the pope cry you can just join last second, yea yea)


Don't get my wrong, I really appreciate your work, I'm just dissapointed how my favorite part of the game (crusades(jihad), turns to out to be almost completly useless.

Byg even recommends to avoid them in his guide. =(

Other than that the mod is awesome, pretty addictive!

[Sleepepro]

I agree crusades are awful, especially when it's over. Sometimes I'm so far away from home my general dies on the way back. If it takes 6 turns to get there on a boat it should take the same amount to get back.

[bɑne]

1)
Usually I accompany my crusaders armies (on boats) with one or two priests at least to settle faster on the new ground.

Worked fine in 6.1/6.2.

Now if I sent the priests to the crusaders ship, it is slowed down to ~20% of its former speed.

That's pretty ridiculous if you think about it: "carefully! we have an old man on board, navigate the boat veeeeeeeeeeeery smooothly."

Am I doing it wrong or is this intended?

Fairly certain this was always the case, as the crusader movement bonus does not apply to agents.

2)
Crusaders armies should not suffer from the extreme minus on morale, for being to far away from home.

In reality these guys have been eager to reach their destination and capture it.

Crusades were always fun, but now in 6.4 it's more a pain, you try to avoid due high costs and the fear of losing your generals (morale/loyality).

It's sad imo.

Crusaders should be rewarded with more boni (morale boni during the crusade, nice character traits for joining and reaching their desitination.
Otherwise the whole thing becomes pointless. (to not make the pope cry you can just join last second, yea yea)


Don't get my wrong, I really appreciate your work, I'm just dissapointed how my favorite part of the game (crusades(jihad), turns to out to be almost completly useless.

Byg even recommends to avoid them in his guide. =(

Other than that the mod is awesome, pretty addictive!

Sounds to me you are using BGR IV. This is a packaged deal and optional for a reason - I really doubt Byg will reverse his stance on crusades.

[Byg]

No I wouldn't, but I don't actually have any BGR traits that decrease morale over distance. Obviously if you run out of supplies you'll get lower morale and the field morale system, linked to time rather than distance, wont seriously affect an army that does not take a break for about 12 turns. That's enough for most crusades.

[Alesianduke]

Yeah... sometimes crusades are such a drag... I suggest accepting only those crusades which have a closer location to your kingdom's borders and you can bribe the papacy later on to restore some "benediction".
What I said isn't of course valid if you want that province or you really want to participate in each crusade the Pope calls for.

About Priests and other agents... why not send them on land or independently of the crusader army (of course there is a risk that your priests could become heretics on the way - happened to me a couple of times).

[bɑne]

No I wouldn't, but I don't actually have any BGR traits that decrease morale over distance. Obviously if you run out of supplies you'll get lower morale and the field morale system, linked to time rather than distance, wont seriously affect an army that does not take a break for about 12 turns. That's enough for most crusades.

I think he was refering to those supply traits as I don't know of any distance based trait systems currently used.

[Nyarla]

there is a trait your general gets when spending too much time in a region with less than 50% your religion, then they get restless and wanna recuperate in a friendly town. no idea if its BGR or SS based though

[ziserman]

there is a trait your general gets when spending too much time in a region with less than 50% your religion, then they get restless and wanna recuperate in a friendly town. no idea if its BGR or SS based though

It's BGR. He's talking about the morale penalty for every 4 turns I think.

[Djangoo]

there is a trait your general gets when spending too much time in a region with less than 50% your religion, then they get restless and wanna recuperate in a friendly town. no idea if its BGR or SS based though

Yea, that's what I was talking about: "Troops Despondant" -4 morale. It's not reflecting the zeal of crusaders imo.

"Always have at least two ships in a fleet. Then select the fleet (not the army on the fleet) and press Ctrl A. Now the ships will have as many movement points as they would if there was nothing on board. "

I will try that soon thx.

[k/t]

Always have at least two ships in a fleet. Then select the fleet (not the army on the fleet) and press Ctrl A. Now the ships will have as many movement points as they would if there was nothing on board.

[ziserman]

Always have at least two ships in a fleet. Then select the fleet (not the army on the fleet) and press Ctrl A. Now the ships will have as many movement points as they would if there was nothing on board.

Never knew that! +rep

[Sleepepro]

Is there anyway to add a trait where their morale doesn't decrease for a couple turns so that during/after a successful crusade far away it doesn't destroy their morale.

[k/t]

Well, crusaders didn't really have such a high zeal. They encountered many setbacks which discouraged them and many of them abandoned the whole enterprise. "Doing God's work" works great for the first few weeks, like going to the gym after New Year's, but then reality sets in. They walked for years through hostile lands and alien environments and then were surrounded by enemies. Crusading armies shouldn't be able to move faster than regular ones, but I think that cannot be changed.

[Dahoota]

Well, crusaders didn't really have such a high zeal. They encountered many setbacks which discouraged them and many of them abandoned the whole enterprise. "Doing God's work" works great for the first few weeks, like going to the gym after New Year's, but then reality sets in. They walked for years through hostile lands and alien environments and then were surrounded by enemies. Crusading armies shouldn't be able to move faster than regular ones, but I think that cannot be changed.

I suspect the crusade movement bonus was a gameplay choice if anything to make it reasonable for an army to cross the map in a reasonable amount of time.

If anything, crusading armies should probably move slower than normal armies given the complete lack of logistical support some of the crusading armies had (especially the peasant-based ones) - being forced to raid the areas they passed through and forage as they went.

Also +rep for the Ctrl+A fleet movement workaround. Been playing this game on and off years and can still learn new things about it

[bɑne]

Well, crusaders didn't really have such a high zeal. They encountered many setbacks which discouraged them and many of them abandoned the whole enterprise. "Doing God's work" works great for the first few weeks, like going to the gym after New Year's, but then reality sets in. They walked for years through hostile lands and alien environments and then were surrounded by enemies. Crusading armies shouldn't be able to move faster than regular ones, but I think that cannot be changed.

Should be possible.
Try the entry in descr_campaign_db.xml:

<crusades>
<required_jihad_piety int="5"/>
<max_disband_progress float="20.0"/>
<near_target_no_disband_distance float="4.0"/>
<disband_progress_window float="3"/>
<crusade_called_start_turn float="10"/>
<jihad_called_start_turn float="10"/>
<movement_points_modifier float="2.5"/>
</crusades>

[Lazy]

I think it should changed to "more fun"!
Crusading armies take toooo long to get back to their homelands! That´s the main reason why i refuse joining crusades so often... crusades are ment to be a steamroll over a city or region... making the others being afraid of the Poop and you obey or at least to shut up! That´s why everyone should be made wanting to take part instead of beeing afraid of a 30-turns-home-ride! Even if that´s how it was like in "those times"...
Slowing them down would make crusades last like for ever! And preventing players to join!

Crusaders should be rewarded with more boni (morale boni during the crusade, nice character traits for joining and reaching their desitination.
Otherwise the whole thing becomes pointless. (to not make the pope cry you can just join last second, yea yea)

This is what i think too! I usually NEVER see a reason to join a crusade ( exept for exploiting... )

[-Myth-]

Crusades are not useless, they are the single most broken non-exploit in the game and that's why they are usually banned in hotseat games. If you're not getting a 300% return on your investment to call one (usually not a big one unless you play with Gracul AI and the Pope hates you by default) then you're doing it wrong.

Crusades give you:

1. Free upkeep on an unlimited number of stacks (huge for early game economy boosts)
2. Hugely strong mercenary troops (2x as better with RR on when everyone else has dirt farmers with pitchforks for troops)
3. Vastly increased movement for your stacks.
4. Chevrons for your troops.
5. Chiv/Command/Ancillaries for your generals.

if you want to, you can even capture provinces (say, you go trough Asia Minor and rape&pillage your way to the Holy Lands via Turkey) and raze buildings for cash. You can easily make 200,000 gold if you destroy buildings and sell provinces to the AI.

So no, I don't think any bonuses should be given. Have them reworked somehow - perhaps. But definitely don't make them stronger.

[Hannibalus]

Crusades are very very unrealistic efficient and profitable.
To make it more realistic the speed should be a little bit turned down and the must efficient cheap crusader troops dissolved after the crusade is over.
You can start with the weakest catholic faction and conquer half of the map using only crusades.
And you can occupy everything, inclusive the territories of the pope.
You only need:
1. you should have some money before you asks for crusade
2. bribe the pope to increase your standing with him
3. every time you should be who asks and elect the crusade target
4. you should be who occupy the target because you control the exact moment of the crusade ending
5. During the crusade send your generals go through catholic territories and collect all available crusader mercenaries.
6. Occupy with your cheap crusaders all non catholic or excommunicated catholic cities and castles around your territories and which are between you and the crusade target.
If they are far away from your capital city and not rentable to keep them then destroy all the buildings in the occupied cities and castles(but not catholic churches-because it will lower your papal standing) and invest the money to hire more mercenaries.
7. Sell all destroyed settlements to other factions.
8. If the crusade target is far away then send to the crusade target only 2 old generals with full stack because when the crusade is over it is difficult to withdraw them.
9.Before you occupy the crusade target make all of your generals and all your troops become crusaders- than all will get a chevron and the generals some nice traits and a lot of points for religious military order guilds.
10. If you occupied a castle on an island or near the shore then wait in that castle with your generals until the next crusade. It is more easy to defend.
For example if you are playing England and you occupied Jerusalem then destroy it and best if you sell it to a muslim or pagan faction.You can withdraw your generals to an occupied castle or fortress near Jerusalem than next time you can ask again as crusade target by the pope and if one of your general is still living he is already there.
11. If your papal standing became lower after the crusade is over because you attacked orthodox Christians or occupied their territories than give to the pope as gift the crusade target or an orthodox territory after you destroyed all buildings.

! Using exploit:
Go with a full stack crusader army near a catholic settlement without attacking them and go with another non-crusader troop near the settlement and your crusader army. Attack with the non-crusader army the catholic faction(can be the pope also).
The crusader army from your faction will support you in your fight even if they would never attack a alone a catholic faction.
!!! More exploit:
You are far away from your homeland only with crusaders.
Let a general come out from the crusader army and leave the crusade. Then you can make the same exploit as above. After then the general can join again the crusade.
This is a very big exploit but can be limited in some extent by modders when giving a higher penalty for generals if leaving the crusade.(about double so high as the bonus entering a crusade) I would suggest this modification in the next SS version.
When I am playing I always activate the higher penalty for leaving the crusade. This modification weakens the point 9. also in some extent because if you have many troops but only a general in your homeland you cannot enter and leave the crusade many times with him.

[Lazy]

I like this one:

when the pope calls a crusade...

1. join with ALL of your heroes
2. leave the crusade with all of your heroes

repeat step 1 & 2 and watch your chivalry rise ( until the maximum of 5 or 6 )

do it at the end of the crusade for free chevrons and less upkeep or biuld 6 peasants because it does not matter if they disapear!

[Judeman266]

Well it's a good thing that BGR IV causes generals to pay 5000 personal wealth and 5000(10000 with inflation) from the treasury for each one. Also only War Councillors can attack in foreign lands, so that helps.