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Thread: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

  1. #21
    Thoragoros's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    The only real problem with the Replishment System we have now is that there is absolutely no way to cut an army's 'supply' of reinforcements unless they are somehow locked in enemy teritory -- which doesn't really ever happen.

    The thing is, supply chains have been hugely important since the dawn of warfare. Yet there is zero representation of this. I'm not sure exactly how CA would configure zones of supply into their current engine, but I certainly hope there is some form of Supply in Rome 2.
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  2. #22

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    This is really down on the bottom of my list, right next to female ninjas with wonderbread pokedotted leotards.

  3. #23

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by daniu View Post
    Now consider that with replenishment, you have a huge army with a general in the outskirts of your empire containing three of those Kat Cav. After a heavy battle, they might be depleted down to, say, 15 men each; but fret not! They'll be replenished within three turns, while on the march to the next province to conquer. At no cost, at that.
    Probably too late for the discussion, but I'd like to point out that in Shogun 2 it doesn't matter how pummeled your unit is, you will still pay full upkeep (if I remember correctly), so saying that you get replenished for free is not entirely correct. Also I'm loving the replenishment system that NTW brought into the TW series and S2 is continuing to implement. Can't recall how was in NTW, but I remember that in any other TW game you'd pay upkeep depending on how battered your unit is - full strength unit will cost you 100% upkeep while battered unit will cost less than that.

    Not so sure about tweaking possibilities as probably daniu has pretty good road system and other improvements, that help to replenish. I recall having few units battered pretty bad an they took multiple turns (by multiple I mean double digits) to replenish fully when I didn't have required dojos.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by Qitbuqa View Post
    I'd like to point out that in Shogun 2 it doesn't matter how pummeled your unit is, you will still pay full upkeep (if I remember correctly), so saying that you get replenished for free is not entirely correct.
    Yes, several people brought that up already, and I'll say it again: it's not a real "cost" because you would also pay that price for the full unit anyway. Sure, you can't really use it for a few rounds, but with the dynamics the game plays out this is not an issue either: after you've conquered a province, you'll have to position your units in the capital for a few rounds anyway to keep the peace.

    And yeah, as I also said, the issue is most relevant later in game, say post RD. On one hand, this is exactly the time where you start getting your massive, expensive armies which should hurt most from casualties; on the other, all your rival factions have upgraded their roads and castles already, so when you start the counterassault, you'll be getting three round replenishment for almost any unit in almost any province you conquer.

    I'll also say again that I do like the at least partially automatic system as such, but the way it is now is too fast. My problem is not that the system is too easy, I like easy; my problem is that it makes me lazily autoresolve although I don't really want to, I used to be in it mostly for the battles.
    Relatedly, the autoresolve causes too little casualties in the first place (at least in the higher difficulties; in Legendary, it sometimes performed better in battle than I think I would have), but that is sort of a perpendicular issue.
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Maybe the replenishment can be toned/reduced a bit, but there is no way in hell I would ever want to go back to how things were in RTW or M2TW that was ridiculous. I hated having to send units clear across the map to be retrained. The replenishment system is one of the better features that has graced the series in a long time and helps the Ai more then anything. Of course I would like to see some improvements just as long as its not too complicated that it puts the Ai at a disadvantage. I always thought it would be cool it you would have to build a field encampment to be able to conscript troops and gain access to replenishment while in the filed. I think this approach would be more realistic and seeing a little military camp on the campaign map would be neat while it builds/repairs its force, I liked the "knights of honor" approach to field recruitment. Of course if there is a field encampment on the campaign map it should be attack-able with a couple of options and if battle takes place at or near the encampment you will see a camp on the battle field as well.

    Encampment (this is from a M2TW historical battle)



    I would love to see encampments added to the TW series it would just be another catalyst that helps bring the campaign and battle map together.

  6. #26
    Emperor of The Great Unknown's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Not to sure I like where this thread is going.

    The replenishment system we have is so much better than M2TW, ETW, and RTW. In those games you had to bring them to a city retain them where you could only retrain like 2 units at a time. And the units would instantly retrain. Now it's a simple steady progression in the field that is affected by factors such as roads, and castles.

    This is ideal enough no need to get more complex than that, otherwise we will just be worrying about how to keep our supply trains and get new units and such and will take away from the immersion that simplicity gives.
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  7. #27

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by Kinjo View Post
    Maybe the replenishment can be toned/reduced a bit, but there is no way in hell I would ever want to go back to how things were in RTW or M2TW that was ridiculous. I hated having to send units clear across the map to be retrained. The replenishment system is one of the better features that has graced the series in a long time and helps the Ai more then anything. Of course I would like to see some improvements just as long as its not too complicated that it puts the Ai at a disadvantage.
    Agreed on everything, also with Emperor; I never said I wanted to go back to the RTW system and in fact was always defending ETW's replenishment when it was attacked back in the day.


    Here is a reasonably simple system that shouldn't be too hard to implement I think:

    - any capital provides a 5% replenish per round for any unit, whether it can produce it or not
    - a recruitment facility in a capital provides a 20% replenish for a unit it can produce, and an additional 10% for each upgrade beyond that (so a No Dachi Dojo provides 30% replenish for a Katana Sword).
    - add in general replenish buildings like S2s Encampments which apply to all units but can't produce.
    Example: this way, a capital should be able to replenish a lowest tier unit with up to 85% per turn if it has the appropriate facitily upgraded to max (20% for being able to produce it, 4*10% for the upgrades, 20% for the tier 2 Encampment, plus the general 5%). Tier two unit: max 75% (because the recruitment facility is only 3 levels beyond being able to produce it at all).

    - a road can "transport" these replenish capabilities to neighboring provinces, with 20% per tier up to 80%.
    This means that if a city has the 85% upgrades and it has a level 2 road (40% transport), it gives its neighbor provinces 40% replenish capability (40% of the 85%).

    This would mean that:
    - you don't have to move your unit for it to replenish, but
    - replenishment becomes smaller for a unit the further it is away from the region where you can produce it, so moving it at least in that direction may be worthwhile sometimes
    - upgrading your roads will reduce this effect up to a point
    - you can still have "replenishment centers" in regions with the general replenish buildings.

    I think this could work for the replenishment system as a "poor man's Supply Lines".

    Then, you can throw in a "Field Doctor" retainer which gives all units in that general's army a 10% replenish in the field, or a "supply genius" skill which allows the general to use a certain percentage of the replenish of the region he is currently in.
    Last edited by daniu; July 11, 2011 at 03:44 PM.
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  8. #28
    Emperor of The Great Unknown's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    actually i see your ideas and speeding up replenishment and least in the late game. By the time of the late game all the roads are upgraded and usually only have to travel 2 or 3 provinces to find another Dojo.

    And how would ashigaru be affected since they should replenish the fastest, but don't have their own recruitment buildings except castles which are in every province.
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  9. #29

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor of The Great Unknown View Post
    actually i see your ideas and speeding up replenishment and least in the late game. By the time of the late game all the roads are upgraded and usually only have to travel 2 or 3 provinces to find another Dojo.
    Well, the numbers could be tweaked obviously, but I don't think too much really. Roads upgraded to max level 4 are kind of rare even in late game, so you'd have a standard distribution of 60% from region to region. The 85% also only apply to ashigarus in the Legendary level building; my spear buildings I usually build up to Naginata Dojo, so that would be a default 25% for Naginata (my standard spear) in the producing region, maybe 45% if it's a replenishment center. Region next to that 20%, next to that, 8% (with the road transport effect). It's really quite low two regions away.

    And how would ashigaru be affected since they should replenish the fastest, but don't have their own recruitment buildings except castles which are in every province.
    I'd say give the 10% additional for each level; ashigaru always have 25% (because they can be produced everywhere) and go up to 95% replenish. Again, only in the Legendary Dojo situation which only applies once on the map, but for ashigaru it doesn't really matter.

    I'll add my concept to the OP to make it more visible for discussion.
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  10. #30

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    I think the replenishment-system from Shogun 2 is the best from all titles...

    I think they should introduce a supplyline-system (like tradingrouts wich can be cut off) in the next TW game. That would add more strategically depth without intensive micro-management. I don't want to talk much about how replenishment should work, because they have to balance it out for the needs of the next TW.

    But I want to say this:
    In ME2 it was simply bypassed by merging units and fill the free slots with mercenaries. So in the end of a "war-campaign" I had mostly armies that consist of 80% mercenaries, because that was much easier to handle than the intended replenishment-system.

  11. #31
    crzyrndm's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by MikkOwl View Post
    I don't understand replenishment rates however. Some things increase it by say 5%, and while that should be a very small increase, in the game it seems to be a huge increase. The scale makes no sense to me (still after almost 600 hours!).
    I think I can help with this one. The replenish rate is a percentage of a full unit. The base rate for ashigaru is about 5-10%. Each increase in replenish rate is added(not multiplied) to the base rate up to some absolutely rediculous rate. This means that a 10% increase, instead of going from 10% to 11%(which is a 10% increase in the replenishment rate), goes from 10% to 20% which is increasing the replenishment rate by 10%(read it twice, they aren't the same).
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  12. #32
    Emperor of The Great Unknown's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    most values are additive in S2TW.
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  13. #33
    Thoragoros's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by daniu View Post
    Agreed on everything, also with Emperor; I never said I wanted to go back to the RTW system and in fact was always defending ETW's replenishment when it was attacked back in the day.


    Here is a reasonably simple system that shouldn't be too hard to implement I think:

    - any capital provides a 5% replenish per round for any unit, whether it can produce it or not
    - a recruitment facility in a capital provides a 20% replenish for a unit it can produce, and an additional 10% for each upgrade beyond that (so a No Dachi Dojo provides 30% replenish for a Katana Sword).
    - add in general replenish buildings like S2s Encampments which apply to all units but can't produce.
    Example: this way, a capital should be able to replenish a lowest tier unit with up to 85% per turn if it has the appropriate facitily upgraded to max (20% for being able to produce it, 4*10% for the upgrades, 20% for the tier 2 Encampment, plus the general 5%). Tier two unit: max 75% (because the recruitment facility is only 3 levels beyond being able to produce it at all).

    - a road can "transport" these replenish capabilities to neighboring provinces, with 20% per tier up to 80%.
    This means that if a city has the 85% upgrades and it has a level 2 road (40% transport), it gives its neighbor provinces 40% replenish capability (40% of the 85%).

    This would mean that:
    - you don't have to move your unit for it to replenish, but
    - replenishment becomes smaller for a unit the further it is away from the region where you can produce it, so moving it at least in that direction may be worthwhile sometimes
    - upgrading your roads will reduce this effect up to a point
    - you can still have "replenishment centers" in regions with the general replenish buildings.

    I think this could work for the replenishment system as a "poor man's Supply Lines".

    Then, you can throw in a "Field Doctor" retainer which gives all units in that general's army a 10% replenish in the field, or a "supply genius" skill which allows the general to use a certain percentage of the replenish of the region he is currently in.
    While your numbers maybe a bit different...isn't that almost what we have currently?
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  14. #34

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoragoros View Post
    While your numbers maybe a bit different...isn't that almost what we have currently?
    Well, the main difference is that roads don't create replenishment for a region by itself, but only transports a certain percentage of it between neighboring provinces.

    This creates different results, even with the same numbers.
    Take two regions, one has a level 3 yari dojo, level 3 roads; the other also has level 3 roads and contains a yari samurai.
    In the current system, it would get a replenishment rate of:
    5% base
    60% for level 3 roads in region 2 where it is positioned (I'm sure the numbers for roads are different in the real game, but I'm using the ones I made up here for comparison)
    65% total.

    In my system, the yari samurai would have a replenishment rate of:
    region 1:
    5% base
    20% level 1
    10% level 2
    10% level 3
    55% total.
    region 2:
    60% of 55% (transported over from region 1)
    30% total.

    One region further, still connected by level 3 roads, only 20% of this would remain; in the current system, it would still get the 65% for base and roads.
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  15. #35

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    I feel the supply system is great as it is, especially at higher difficulties where stack of elite samurai after stack comes at you and you really want to keep your armies' casualties low.

    Also my experience that autoresolve is better than fighting is completely opposite. Autoresolve will always give you more casualties and more than often give you defeats.

    IMO the OP needs to up the difficulty to hard/very hard.

  16. #36

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by Tullaris View Post
    I feel the supply system is great as it is, especially at higher difficulties where stack of elite samurai after stack comes at you and you really want to keep your armies' casualties low.

    Also my experience that autoresolve is better than fighting is completely opposite. Autoresolve will always give you more casualties and more than often give you defeats.

    IMO the OP needs to up the difficulty to hard/very hard.
    Auto resolve will give higher casualties when the balance of battle is about even. When the balance of battle is over 75%-ish in your favour, auto resolve will give you very few losses even in siege situations.

  17. #37
    crzyrndm's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    ESPECIALLY in siege situations, because it dosen't factor defenses into calculations.

    It's because it allocates casualty rates according to the relative strength of forces. In a 2:1 advantage, Auto-calc normally gives twice as many casualties to the inferior force(if you got 400, they get ~800)
    Last edited by crzyrndm; July 13, 2011 at 01:49 AM.
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  18. #38

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by Tullaris View Post
    IMO the OP needs to up the difficulty to hard/very hard.
    I belong to the exalted 0.6 percent who finished Legendary
    Autoresolve will give you defeats more often, but especially on VH/L, it fares very well casualtywise.
    And my point was that with the current system, casualties don't matter; especially the way they are distributed when autoresolving.

    Which is another thing that makes the replenishment system problematic: no matter how many units are damaged, each will get the same upgrade percentage.
    Having 1 damaged ashigaru unit in your army getting 20% replenish means 25 men replenished per turn; having 12 units at 25% means 300 per turn.
    Dissolving units by merging them means that there is less supply arriving?
    It's just inconsistent.
    Last edited by daniu; July 13, 2011 at 03:23 AM.
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  19. #39

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by daniu View Post
    Yes, several people brought that up already, and I'll say it again: it's not a real "cost" because you would also pay that price for the full unit anyway. Sure, you can't really use it for a few rounds, but with the dynamics the game plays out this is not an issue either: after you've conquered a province, you'll have to position your units in the capital for a few rounds anyway to keep the peace.

    And yeah, as I also said, the issue is most relevant later in game, say post RD. On one hand, this is exactly the time where you start getting your massive, expensive armies which should hurt most from casualties; on the other, all your rival factions have upgraded their roads and castles already, so when you start the counterassault, you'll be getting three round replenishment for almost any unit in almost any province you conquer.

    I'll also say again that I do like the at least partially automatic system as such, but the way it is now is too fast. My problem is not that the system is too easy, I like easy; my problem is that it makes me lazily autoresolve although I don't really want to, I used to be in it mostly for the battles.
    Relatedly, the autoresolve causes too little casualties in the first place (at least in the higher difficulties; in Legendary, it sometimes performed better in battle than I think I would have), but that is sort of a perpendicular issue.

    I would like to try to revive this thread. The new style of recruitment is so unrealistic and takes so much strategy out of the game. Those of you that like it, fine, it is more convenient and easy but it is very unrealistic, there is no argument against that, if you say there is, you are lying to yourself and you know it.

    For example you train an elite army in in Pella as the Macedonians. You bring four thousand foot companions with you on your campaign in lets say Egypt or Persia. You lose one thousand of those well trained Macedonian soldiers in a battle thousands of miles away from Greece. How do you propose that you can magically make those men reappear out of thin air? There is no way your going to convince local Persians or Egyptians who hate your guts to join your ranks while your still fighting them and their own people. Where are the facilities to train them at? Who is training them while your on your campaign in foreign territory? Your other soldiers who have other things to do? What gear are you going to give them? Every dead soldiers gear still in perfect condition and collected off of every corpse? Maybe in a perfect world. As others have said supply chains are very important. So is conserving your armies numbers.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    I wonder, if this is your only gripe about 'unrealism' in mostly arcady games that TW series are.
    And no, what makes battles pointless is unlimited recruitment.

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