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Thread: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

  1. #1

    Icon9 Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    My Problem After a three day campaigning binge, I found myself realizing that I was playing only few field battles and thought about why; then it struck me: it's partly the fault of the replenishment system in S2.

    One of the effects of playing out a battle is that you take less casualties than when autoresolving (arguably, but let's assume this is so for now).
    Taking less casualties becomes more important the longer it takes you to recover from them.

    Without the replenishment system, if you lose a half stack of unimproved zero-vet yari ashigaru, you'll re-produce it within a round in the neighboring provinces and after their march, you'll have it back within three turns.
    If you lose a single unit of Katana Cav with armor and/or weapon upgrade, chances are there is only one or two provinces where you can recruit them at all, taking two turns plus the time to get them through half of Japan; that's an easy 10 turn wait.

    Now consider that with replenishment, you have a huge army with a general in the outskirts of your empire containing three of those Kat Cav. After a heavy battle, they might be depleted down to, say, 15 men each; but fret not! They'll be replenished within three turns, while on the march to the next province to conquer. At no cost, at that.

    I'm not against the replenishment system as such, it saves hours of micromanagement, but in S2 it's gone too far. The overall rate is too fast and being able to replenish on the road is insane. As long as you win a battle, it does not matter how much you lose! Gameplay-wise, there is no reason to fight battles anymore if you're even remotely certain you will win; the losses almost don't matter at all. Basically, the only way to lose an army is if it gets attacked several times in one turn.
    I almost exclusively fought sieges in my campaigns, on account of being able to hold back virtually unlimited amounts of units with a single castle.

    I say:
    - only allow replenishment in regions where you can produce the unit
    - to be able to replenish on the road, a general needs to gain a certain trait or retainer ("field doctor")
    - make replenishment cost money
    - provide proper in-game tools for the management of replenishing your units, no matter how it works exactly
    - include replenishment in the concept of Supply Lines if they get implemented.


    I can already hear people say "install a mod", but that's besides the point; this post is meant to provide feedback to CA's designers on vanilla, not to look for better ways to play for myself.



    EDIT:
    Proposal for Replenishment System Here's a replenish mechanics proposal I came up with further down in this thread, reposting here to make it more visible for discussion. I think it is reasonably simple and shouldn't be too hard to implement:

    - any capital provides a 5% replenish per round for any unit, whether it can produce it or not
    - a recruitment facility in a capital provides a 20% replenish for a unit it can produce, and an additional 10% for each upgrade beyond that (so a No Dachi Dojo provides 30% replenish for a Katana Sword).
    - add in general replenish buildings like S2s Encampments which apply to all units but can't produce.
    Example: this way, a capital should be able to replenish a lowest tier unit with up to 85% per turn if it has the appropriate facitily upgraded to max (20% for being able to produce it, 4*10% for the upgrades, 20% for the tier 2 Encampment, plus the general 5%). Tier two unit: max 75% (because the recruitment facility is only 3 levels beyond being able to produce it at all).

    - a road can "transport" these replenish capabilities to neighboring provinces, with 20% per tier up to 80%.
    This means that if a city has the 85% upgrades and it has a level 2 road (40% transport), it gives its neighbor provinces 40% replenish capability (40% of the 85%).

    This would mean that:
    - you don't have to move your unit for it to replenish, but
    - replenishment becomes smaller for a unit the further it is away from the region where you can produce it, so moving it at least in that direction may be worthwhile sometimes
    - upgrading your roads will reduce this effect up to a point
    - you can still have "replenishment centers" in regions with the general replenish buildings.

    I think this could work for the replenishment system as a "poor man's Supply Lines".

    Then, you can throw in a "Field Doctor" retainer which gives all units in that general's army a 10% replenish in the field, or a "supply genius" skill which allows the general to use a certain percentage of the replenish of the region he is currently in.

    Actual numbers can do with tweaking of course, but the principle seems sound to me.
    Last edited by daniu; July 11, 2011 at 03:09 PM. Reason: added mechanics proposal for discussion
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  2. #2
    Arksa's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    I feel Darthmod does this since I seem to need to regroup longer, really makes a difference in tactics. In vanilla it seemed to that you had to wait 1-3 turns and not more to replenish even with just stronghold.

    I think replenishment system, if toned down a bit, works wonders. It adds some nice tactics to the game. Attack enemy as soon as possible after the last battle to have the best chance.

    I Wish CA added a info panel on the army how much replenishment % is at the point it's standing in. like +5% from roads, + 10% from fort, + 7 % from surgeon, + 3% from supply commissioner.

    I agree to a point that battles, or rather, the casualties in the battles don't matter much if replenishment is high. Doesn't matter if you lose 0 or 40 in a unit, it will come back in a highly supplied province.
    But supply system is made rather simple and I like it that way. Think about the battle in Stalingrad for example. Supply, if made realistic, should affect unit speed, morale and pretty much all abilities of a unit rather than magical regeneration of units.
    Last edited by Arksa; July 11, 2011 at 03:54 AM.

  3. #3
    Laetus
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    This sounds like big design flaw. I hope there is at least some mod which will solve it.
    I have not played Shogun 2 yet and most likely wont, if it is in such bad state.

  4. #4
    Arksa's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by orange View Post
    This sounds like big design flaw. I hope there is at least some mod which will solve it.
    I have not played Shogun 2 yet and most likely wont, if it is in such bad state.
    Something good done a bit over the top is not a big design flaw. I think most people agree that replenishment system is more fun than what we had in previous games.
    If it's a huge problem for you, I think you can mod it or ask a modder to do a simple nerf. I think you got scared by the topic title.


    EDIT: if it's not darthmod that affects replenishment, it might be the difficulty. I noticed that when I started to play legendary, it took longer to replenish.
    Last edited by Arksa; July 11, 2011 at 04:23 AM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by orange View Post
    This sounds like big design flaw. I hope there is at least some mod which will solve it.
    I have not played Shogun 2 yet and most likely wont, if it is in such bad state.
    Big design flaw? Did you play Empire on/around the release?

    Shogun 2 is light-years above that pile...

  6. #6

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Yes, I wouldn't call it a "huge flaw", it's kind of subtle, it took me three days of solid playing to put my finger on the problem.
    The effect is most prevalent in the late game when all the roads and settlements are heavily upgraded.
    Sadly, this is also the time when you want to put to use all those elite units you've been upgrading for all campaign long... and then they're de-valued a bit because you basically have a free supply of them.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    There is a point in your post, danu.

    - only allow replenishment in regions where you can produce the unit
    I'd say make replenishment slower or faster basing on the number of regions being able to produce units and distance they need to cross. If your province is cut off and you have no military access then you are limited only to those units that your province can produce.

    - to be able to replenish on the road, a general needs to gain a certain trait or retainer ("field doctor")
    Or make post roads and stations to connect provinces thus making replenishment on the road possible.

    - make replenishment cost money
    If you do so then undermanned unit shouldn't cost its full value as it does now.

  8. #8
    Arksa's Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    If you have an experienced unit you don't want to get casualties because they will lose xp when they get supplied with conscripts

  9. #9

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by Arksa View Post
    If you have an experienced unit you don't want to get casualties because they will lose xp when they get supplied with conscripts
    Hands down this is the most annoying flaw with this game. Battle Hardened units lose xp. I understand why...the dilution factor....but it is still lame.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by daniu View Post
    If you lose a single unit of Katana Cav with armor and/or weapon upgrade, chances are there is only one or two provinces where you can recruit them at all, taking two turns plus the time to get them through half of Japan; that's an easy 10 turn wait. [...] After a heavy battle, they might be depleted down to, say, 15 men each; but fret not! They'll be replenished within three turns, while on the march to the next province to conquer.
    Agreed with that this is implausible, but only slightly. The new recruits do not have the same level training that the recruitment dojos provide. It is not unthinkable that they are scraped together from here and there with only basic level Katana Cavalry training. Normally also, replenishment is very slow for units if the province does not have the appropriate dojos.

    At no cost, at that.
    That is not true. The upkeep cost for the 15 man Katana Cavalry is the same as for a fully staffed and equipped unit. This believably represents the costs of training, equipping and transporting the replenishing men to the unit.

    I'm not against the replenishment system as such, it saves hours of micromanagement, but in S2 it's gone too far. The overall rate is too fast and being able to replenish on the road is insane. As long as you win a battle, it does not matter how much you lose! Gameplay-wise, there is no reason to fight battles anymore if you're even remotely certain you will win; the losses almost don't matter at all. Basically, the only way to lose an army is if it gets attacked several times in one turn.
    I disagree. The replenishment rate for units is slow in most provinces that lack the correct dojos. The costs are believable as previously pointed out, and recruits generally are green (i.e. level 1). For example, in my Tokugawa campaigns I often recruit level 5 Kisho Ninja, and after every battle they tend to take some losses. Their level drops to level 4, 3 or even 2 as fresh recruits are level 1. This is realistic and a big incentive to not let veterans die needlessly.

    I don't understand replenishment rates however. Some things increase it by say 5%, and while that should be a very small increase, in the game it seems to be a huge increase. The scale makes no sense to me (still after almost 600 hours!).

    - only allow replenishment in regions where you can produce the unit
    On first glance it makes sense to me. Then I question why recruits would not be able to travel to the unit they are replenishing. Your suggestion is unrealistic. But from a game perspective, it may be more fun. If this was to be used, it would be nice if the recruits have the same experience level as can be recruited in that province (this may be the case already. I don't know).

    to be able to replenish on the road, a general needs to gain a certain trait or retainer ("field doctor")
    Hm, questionable. Seems fun in one way. But in another way, this sounds like the most powerful trait/retainer a general could have. In addition, generals all are special in that they provide this ability, which captains do not.

    make replenishment cost money
    It already does. Costs a lot, in fact, and it costs more the worse the infrastructure of the province is like. So simple yet so ingenious it almost makes me laugh (I initially was of your opinion then realized. ).

    provide proper in-game tools for the management of replenishing your units, no matter how it works exactly
    Disagreed. Lots of micromanagement added at almost no benefit. Bad design decision.

    include replenishment in the concept of Supply Lines if they get implemented.
    STRONGLY AGREE! Supply lines should be present as a mechanic, visible on the campaign map and dependant on infrastructure. Maybe as a line from the nearest dojo capable of training the unit, using the road network and ports. If it is blocked, replenishment does not occur. This system can be entirely automated, adding next to zero micromanagement to the player.

    I can already hear people say "install a mod", but that's besides the point; this post is meant to provide feedback to CA's designers on vanilla, not to look for better ways to play for myself.
    Just ignore those posts, and put posters like that on your ignore list if too useless. Your post was interesting, made me think and I enthusiastically embrace your supply line idea (with my own idea of how it should work). I'm going to champion it by suggesting it to CA. I think I'll post a poll for it in its own topic so we can see how players feel about it. Technically it is probably not terribly complex to implement for players (a pathfinding mechanic for trade routes already exists, which is very similar. The major challenge would be making the AI understand the mechanic - blocking supply lines of others whilst protecting its own).

  11. #11

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by MikkOwl View Post
    The new recruits do not have the same level training that the recruitment dojos provide.
    Which is almost irrelevant. After a battle, merge your units, only one is left damaged which will be the only one taking the xp hit. Next battle after it replenished, it will be fast to gain chevs so it will reinforce the others again.
    Also, veterancy doesn't even play a big role since the main point of my OP was that the whole system favors autoresolving your land battles, which results in a) vet units taking less damage overall and b) you hardly ever laying eyes on your units anyway.

    Normally also, replenishment is very slow for units if the province does not have the appropriate dojos.
    No. Large castles and upgraded roads play a much larger role later in the game.
    In early game, you have a smallish empire and hardly any high tier units, so you almost always have the suitable dojo close enough.

    The upkeep cost for the 15 man Katana Cavalry is the same as for a fully staffed and equipped unit. This believably represents the costs of training, equipping and transporting the replenishing men to the unit.
    That's nothing!
    Did you play the pre-ETW TWs? There, it cost the proportional recruitment cost of the unit to retrain it (instead of the proportional upkeep as it basically is now), and you could only do it in a city where you had the building to train that unit, and it took away a production slot. Now that's costs... it's not what I want back, just saying.
    Secondly, you'd pay that upkeep whether the unit is damaged or not, so there's no real additional cost. The real effect of this is that it's actually better to have a damaged unit, because it provides you with free frontline production since you pay the full price for it anyway.

    Disagreed. Lots of micromanagement added at almost no benefit.
    What you disagree here is that there should be proper management tools
    Again, you sound like you didn't play the earlier TWs. There is no "micromanagement added" if you can only replenish in cities which can produce that unit, it's "reintroduced". I think this was actually in all previous TWs, even up to NTW IIRC.
    And there was a lot of enjoyment benefit, because it felt like you had to look out for your men instead of just being able to throw them into the fire like S2 allows to a degree.

    I never cared about "realism" much, I play a game for fun and challenge, and the S2 replenishment system takes away a bit of both is what I'm saying.
    Last edited by daniu; July 11, 2011 at 08:39 AM.
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  12. #12
    eXistenZ's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    nah replenishment system was very different in empire. the one in shogun resembles closest to Napoleon, where troops would replenish as long as they had a general and were in friendly territory. but you could imrpove the rate of replenishment by building supply depots, and thats what i miss in Shogun II. Cause in Napoleon you really needed them. the replenishment rate in shogun is indeed very high. I doubt anyone build the encampment imrpovement that speeds up replenishing.

    the replenishment system in empire was rubbish. you could replenish all your troops, even if you were in enemy territory siberia. and tehy would be replenished in one go, instead of gradually

  13. #13

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by eXistenZ View Post
    the replenishment system in empire was rubbish. you could replenish all your troops, even if you were in enemy territory siberia. and tehy would be replenished in one go, instead of gradually
    Ah yeah, you're right. But it did take more than one round, didn't it? And you had to pay for it.
    Actually I didn't find the ETW system that bad, in the context of the game it made sense. There, you could really not expect the player to move back to a region where he can build the given unit, and often enough not even to any own region at all.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    I think there are some good points and some less important ones here.

    Time to replenish is a big one. After all, you have to wait a bit (unless things are really upgraded) to replenish, but some mods seem to speed this up. I use DM and within two or three turns in my land everything is back, and that is a normal general with second to top tier roads. Maybe this is fast to me and slow to others, not sure, but I say it is a bit quick actually. I like the speed when in my vassals, it takes a while so I actually need to wait before moving on to my next conquest, or pull back to my own lands for quick recovery.

    The requirement to replenish. While I think replenishment is a great idea, I liked the RTW and M2TW ideas where you can retrain your units. This allowed for you to get better equipment upgrades and replace all your men as well. Could work that the retrained unit gets new recruits at that level (so a veteran unit isn't brought down a lot if you goto the right town to replenish where recruits start with a lvl 4 or 5). Perhaps an option to turn off replenishment for certain units if this was implemented?

    Replenishment actually ends up hurting you. It is so easy to get raw recruits in this game coming out with 3-5 XP levels and an upgraded bonus (+x to armor, attack, moral, accuracy, etc) that most of the time when you start to lose a unit it would be smarter to disband them, recruit a new unit that is better and move on. Yes, the recruit cost is there, but I rather spend the 300 koku to recruit a lvl 5 BA with +20 accuracy over the 40% lvl 3 BA who will become lvl 1 after replenishment. On this note, I think it should be harder to get raw recruits who have more experience than my battle hardened units. My last Takeda campaign is a prime example. I had Yari Cavalry with my main army most of the game, and they would average 800-1000 kills a battle at least (using DM ultra unit size) and they were only lvl 8ish at the end. I could recruit level 4 off the bat with better base stats than they had (higher charge bonus and more armor) and regain 4 levels quickly enough, or really only 2 to make them comparative in most stats.
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  15. #15
    Emperor of The Great Unknown's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    well units still cost full upkeep even when replenishing so if it takes like 10 turns to fully replenish then it would just be cheaper to exploit the system by recruiting new units and disbanding old depleted ones.
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  16. #16
    eXistenZ's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by daniu View Post
    Ah yeah, you're right. But it did take more than one round, didn't it? And you had to pay for it.
    Actually I didn't find the ETW system that bad, in the context of the game it made sense. There, you could really not expect the player to move back to a region where he can build the given unit, and often enough not even to any own region at all.
    yeah it did take more than one turn, which was even worse. You are replenishing your army, you end turn. you do your work, and you know, that the next turn your army will be fully restored. so you hit end turn: your army gets attacked, eliminating the replenishment, and you have to fight with a damaged army, and then you had to restart the replinishment cyclus again, ifyour army wasnt destroyed.

    i could never invade india on hard, because of this. sure, i could post a few stacks in and win a few provinces, but then the marathas send a wave of stacks to you, and you cant replenish in time, because it goes in one go, instead of gradually like in Napoleon

  17. #17

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Well in ETW, we had to pay to replenish our troops, I liked it. I don't understand why it's automatic and free now, not that realistic.
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  18. #18

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor of The Great Unknown View Post
    well units still cost full upkeep even when replenishing so if it takes like 10 turns to fully replenish then it would just be cheaper to exploit the system by recruiting new units and disbanding old depleted ones.
    This.
    In late game, I disband depleted units, esp. ashigaru, as it is cheaper to train a new higher rank unit than to keep the hurt unit and pay the same in upkeep.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    An idea:

    - Need to toggle replenishment mode to replenish a unit (pay more in the field, less in cities and less with the right buildings, etc)
    - Can only recruit X soldiers or X% of the unit total per turn (again, modified by location and buildings, limited by things like some measure of province population or town wealth, replenishment happens faster in bigger cities)
    - Pay extra funds on top of regular unit upkeep during replenishment mode (the cost of putting up a recruitment station and asking people to join the army/hire people to conscript soldiers)
    - Maybe make replenishing units immobile during replenishment?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Replenishment System Makes Battles Pointless

    You can make replenishment possible only during the winter seasons while stationing within a city with general in it. There also should be something like field camp which gives you penalties when attacked and you can upgrade your general in return for some mild fortifications (like the Rome forts) but while setting a camp you can heal/replenish a certain number of units in the field. That could add some depth to winter months and field operations in general.

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