Population

[Vanderdecken]

It seems to me this is one of the "could have been" features of the game. I remember in Rome, that when you recruited soldiers from a city it detracted from the overall population. If the population wasn't there, you couldn't hire anyone. Which to me, sounds like a nice balance to Medieval II.

Castles, are strong fortresses with high walls and able to turn out high quality troops. However, they can only produce a much hampered population as compared to cities. So the connection should be clear. With castles, you can turn out higher quality troops but you can only turn out so many or otherwise depopulate the castle/fortress/citadel. Then, if you need to retrain them, you have to wait for the population to catch up. Keeps the AI from making these "Super stacks" of nothing but mailed knights.

Cities, on the hand, turn out bigger populations but supply below par troops. So, you can recruit more from these population centers, but have lesser quality troops.Which, as the real Medieval Age progressed, became more and more common.

I doubt there's a way to implement it, but it might make a nice small modification to the game as a whole.

Anyone else agree?

[Derbiean]

I agree, the "super stacks" which eventually happened as a game progresses of high quality troops made it fundamentally unbalanced (altho it was fun for me personally to send a super stack of mine against other and watch them fight it out). If population cannot be tweaked then the the best troops purchase cost and subsequent upkeep should so high that making such a stack of them is not economically viable.

[Aeratus]

While good idea in theory, the whole population system is too underdeveloped to make this realistic. In-game, Constantinople only starts with 15k population, whereas in history it had 500k during that time. Realistically, recruitment depends not only on population, but on culture. For example, the Mongols could raise a high percentage of troops of its population, whereas the Byzantines could barely raise any native troops despite having a huge population.

[Diamond]

While good idea in theory, the whole population system is too underdeveloped to make this realistic. In-game, Constantinople only starts with 15k population, whereas in history it had 500k during that time. Realistically, recruitment depends not only on population, but on culture. For example, the Mongols could raise a high percentage of troops of its population, whereas the Byzantines could barely raise any native troops despite having a huge population.

This is balanced by the fact that units in this game have 40, 60, 75, etc. max troops. In the Roman Empire, didn't each unit have 5k troops?

[Emperor of The Great Unknown]

this is balanced by recruitment pools, which replenish overtime, which is why you can't recruit like 8 knights at once in M2TW.

[AJenny58]

this is balanced by recruitment pools, which replenish overtime, which is why you can't recruit like 8 knights at once in M2TW.

Yes.

Also even on huge unit sizes you're pulling out 300 people from the population and turning them into soldiers. Not a huge deal especially if you take into account the population growth of your settlements.

[Symphony]

Yes.

Also even on huge unit sizes you're pulling out 300 people from the population and turning them into soldiers. Not a huge deal especially if you take into account the population growth of your settlements.

Actually, population growth is where it hurts most.

300 people doesn't seem like a whole lot, until you take into account that you're targeting the recruitment at young, able-bodied men....in other words, your best baby-makers.

In a highly religious society, you can safely double the population growth impact of that number to 600, because you're not only taking away those 300 men, you're also preventing the 300 women they would have married "out of the game" for the duration.

Now assume the settlement has a population of 5,000. Some percentage of that 5,000 will be outside of child-bearing eligibility (too old, too young, too infirm, already married, etc). In a medieval settlement, that's actually going to be a pretty high percentage....for a ballpark, somewhat-made-up-number (and ease of calculation), let's say that group accounts for 50% of the population.

That means your REAL impact is: of a population growth pool of 2500, you removed 600 eligible "producers". One unit of 300 men just cut your population growth by 24%, even though it only accounted for 6% of your total population. That "gap" remains until those men come home and start making babies again, or until children mature to child-bearing age (and the era had a pretty stiff infant mortality rate).

During the American Civil War, it's estimated that the South lost 30% of its men age 18-40, and it took the South decades to recover from the population impact of that loss.

[ziserman]

This is balanced by the fact that units in this game have 40, 60, 75, etc. max troops. In the Roman Empire, didn't each unit have 5k troops?

A legion had 6000 troops, yes. But this doesn't represent one unit, rather a full stack. Suffice to say that the Roman Empire at its greatest extent could field somehting like 20-30 legions total.

[Emperor of The Great Unknown]

Well also population is drastically scaled down. In reality recruit wasn't ever a matter of manpower more of training and the money needed to upkeep such forces.

[Vanderdecken]

I play at Ultra setting. I believe it's........120 troops per unit. Would really be counter=productive if you played on small.

[Diamond]

I play at Ultra setting. I believe it's........120 troops per unit. Would really be counter=productive if you played on small.

How do you change it to ultra?

[Vanderdecken]

How do you change it to ultra?

Sorry, "Huge". The unit sizes are "Huge". But are you really trying to argue over a technicality of wording?

[Diamond]

Sorry, "Huge". The unit sizes are "Huge". But are you really trying to argue over a technicality of wording?

No, I wasn't arguing over that, I was playing on normal and was trying to see how to get the setting to 120 troops per unit. Let me be more clear XD

How do you set it to Huge?

Originally Posted by Symphony
Actually, population growth is where it hurts most.

300 people doesn't seem like a whole lot, until you take into account that you're targeting the recruitment at young, able-bodied men....in other words, your best baby-makers.

In a highly religious society, you can safely double the population growth impact of that number to 600, because you're not only taking away those 300 men, you're also preventing the 300 women they would have married "out of the game" for the duration.

Now assume the settlement has a population of 5,000. Some percentage of that 5,000 will be outside of child-bearing eligibility (too old, too young, too infirm, already married, etc). In a medieval settlement, that's actually going to be a pretty high percentage....for a ballpark, somewhat-made-up-number (and ease of calculation), let's say that group accounts for 50% of the population.

That means your REAL impact is: of a population growth pool of 2500, you removed 600 eligible "producers". One unit of 300 men just cut your population growth by 24%, even though it only accounted for 6% of your total population. That "gap" remains until those men come home and start making babies again, or until children mature to child-bearing age (and the era had a pretty stiff infant mortality rate).

During the American Civil War, it's estimated that the South lost 30% of its men age 18-40, and it took the South decades to recover from the population impact of that loss.
Also, this was very, very good logic and reasoning, +rep. Good point.

[Mr. Battle]

No, I wasn't arguing over that, I was playing on normal and was trying to see how to get the setting to 120 troops per unit. Let me be more clear XD

How do you set it to Huge?

It's under the video settings options, I believe.

[Aeratus]

Sacking/exterminating of course raises population growth because it reduces squalor.

[AJenny58]

But the growth rates are in percent. 1% of 100 is less than 0.5% of 400. So the growth percentage is increased, but the numbers are decreased as well as the over all population. And when I sack cities the people get mad at me! They prefer to be massacred, I've found.

[Emperor of The Great Unknown]

But the growth rates are in percent. 1% of 100 is less than 0.5% of 400. So the growth percentage is increased, but the numbers are decreased as well as the over all population. And when I sack cities the people get mad at me! They prefer to be massacred, I've found.

You can take my life but not money!

[smthhappy]

Men should be either treated generously or destroyed, because they take revenge for slight injuries - for heavy ones they cannot. .. - N. Machiavelli