HRE Knights and Their Ineptness

[napoleonic]

do not test using custom battle on VH difficulty, the AI get attack bonus! try H for a sure balance!

[merocaine]

Real men test on VH.

[k/t]

I thought it had been established that the AI only gets morale bonuses in M2.

[napoleonic]

I thought it had been established that the AI only gets morale bonuses in M2.

you haven been always said like that I know, but my tests said otherwise (with PB's 6.2 and 6.4 HURB)

either things are different on different pc or one of us lies

[ITC]

On VH it looks like this

[Ichon]

Luckily those Frankish mercenaries have low armor. A few spearmen and a bunch of Pechenegs or Lithuanian cavalry can handle that. I get more worried when I see a stack like that with Chivalric knights or Mercenary German Knights.

[ITC]

Luckily those Frankish mercenaries have low armor. A few spearmen and a bunch of Pechenegs or Lithuanian cavalry can handle that. I get more worried when I see a stack like that with Chivalric knights or Mercenary German Knights.

As I remember, Frankish Knights have nerely the same parametres to Ritterbruders.
~ 18 Defense
~ 9 Attack

This is off-topic, but I don't think a bunch of HA can deal with full stack of heavy cavalry. They'd run to the borders of map and die.

P.S.
Ok, a bit less defence


But anyway, they are strong. And those AI's Frankish Knights are about to get 9 attack.

[Ichon]

As I remember, Frankish Knights have nerely the same parametres to Ritterbruders.
~ 18 Defense
~ 9 Attack

This is off-topic, but I don't think a bunch of HA can deal with full stack of heavy cavalry. They'd run to the borders of map and die.

P.S.
Ok, a bit less defence

But anyway, they are strong. And those AI's Frankish Knights are about to get 9 attack.

They have good melee attack which is why you need HA or good terrain with spears and missiles to deal with them.

I actually think those guys are midway between medium and heavy cavalry. Believe me 15 defense not only is low but more important is the 6 armor which means if you put HA behind them they only face 6 defense as shield is only for front and defense skill doesn't work against missiles. I have a battle in my Norway AAR where I take down 14-15 of those guys with only a 4-5 HA and a couple other units. I've done other battles with nearly 20 of those and Crusader knights in a single stack defeated by less than 10 HA and a single general.

I only worry when I start seeing heavy cavalry with armor 9 or higher which is about when they start to die more slowly to arrows in the back.

There have been a bunch of threads asking what bonuses the AI gets, and the consensus every time was that the stat bonuses from RTW don't exist in M2. I haven't done any tests; I was just going on the consensus.

The mercenary pools shouldn't fill so fast. That's at least 15 mercenary knights in 36 turns... An army like that should be fought at a bridge or on a mountain so they can't charge effectively.

I haven't seen noticeable affects of more than morale bonus on VH but maybe something really small exists. Is there any hardcoded files where morale decreases stamina loss or anything like that? Because different stamina level definitely has effects in melee.

The only times I've seen AI get such huge stacks of mercenaries are on Crusades or when given a town without a barracks or had a town revolt to their side. Otherwise that does seem alot for so early.

Well, I must be quite unlucky, really.

I have tested a custom battle. 1 Mercenary German Knights vs. 1 Crusader Knights on M/M.

The Crusader Knights won.

The important difference is that German Mercenary Knights have 17 armor while Crusader Knights have only 6. So the Crusaders die easily by missiles while the other guys keep on coming. However the Crusader Knights have 8 melee attack vs 4 for the Germans so in melee I could easily see the Crusaders winning since overall defense isn't as important as the attack bonus in small engagements.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

Well, I must be quite unlucky, really.

I have tested a custom battle. 1 Mercenary German Knights vs. 1 Crusader Knights on M/M.

The Crusader Knights won.

[k/t]

There have been a bunch of threads asking what bonuses the AI gets, and the consensus every time was that the stat bonuses from RTW don't exist in M2. I haven't done any tests; I was just going on the consensus.

But now you people got me worried. I'll try a few custom battles sometime today.

The mercenary pools shouldn't fill so fast. That's at least 15 mercenary knights in 36 turns... An army like that should be fought at a bridge or on a mountain so they can't charge effectively.

[ITC]

The mercenary pools shouldn't fill so fast. That's at least 15 mercenary knights in 36 turns... An army like that should be fought at a bridge or on a mountain so they can't charge effectively.

There was a full stack, 17 mercenary knights. And yes, it is really strange, where did AI get them on a ~ 30th turn. (It was first time I saw HRE expanded so far. Denmark was obliterated)

I think it's also has someting to do with AI bonuses gained on vh/vh.
I

[k/t]

"Is there any hardcoded files where morale decreases stamina loss or anything like that? Because different stamina level definitely has effects in melee."

It works the other way around: if a unit's stamina is still at a good level, its morale won't drop as fast in a bad situation. "Exhausted" units break really fast.

[Ichon]

"Is there any hardcoded files where morale decreases stamina loss or anything like that? Because different stamina level definitely has effects in melee."

It works the other way around: if a unit's stamina is still at a good level, its morale won't drop as fast in a bad situation. "Exhausted" units break really fast.

Exhausted units also have a decrease in their melee ability. Not sure of the exact drop but a unit that when fresh could easily slaughter enemies instead takes higher losses when exhausted and does less kills and as you say also does break earlier.

Its an obvious drop at the very tired and exhausted states. Before that I am not sure if there is a big difference.

[Maltacus]

"Is there any hardcoded files where morale decreases stamina loss or anything like that? Because different stamina level definitely has effects in melee."

It works the other way around: if a unit's stamina is still at a good level, its morale won't drop as fast in a bad situation. "Exhausted" units break really fast.

This does not mean it cannot work the other way too. Like a unit that is shaken or wavering for a time getting more tired due to the morale drop.

It often appears to me that enemy companies (particularly infantry but sometimes cavalry too) fight less effective when wavering, but it seems to be more due to the movement of the soldiers - walking around in the place instead of hitting mine - than a decrease in their strength when being locked up in melee with another company.

[Abul'Khair]

Dismounted Gothic Knights are my favorite unit. Unfortunately they are useless and overpriced vs AP units.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

CAN PB tells us the reasons now that he's back?

[napoleonic]

he is back?! where?

[Prince of Judah]

PB, you should atleast make Gothic Knights and Foot Knights Elite, and not superior. The foot knights are greatly inferior to most late heavy infantry.

[k/t]

Such as?

PB said the Foot Imperial Knights are Elite, so I'm guessing it's also the case for Foot Gothic Knights.

[Marie Louise von Preussen]

They are Superior, not Elite.