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Thread: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

  1. #61

    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    Can you describe how will It work? And what factions will use particular types?
    My thoughts: the easiest to do is accuracy and power. Range is more problematic: shorter range for nomad tactic units (like close bow HA in BC) will induce HA to come closer to enemy but all army with 50-70m range...
    'Hit and run' only for steppe HA I think. It will help also with 'back shot' which should be specific only for nomads (of course It won't work If player insist to withdraw 'shower of arrow' HA type of unit manually).
    Do you think that Is It possible do increase speed of shot for 'shower of arrow' HA?

  2. #62

    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    About AI contorled armies: one of main problems with AI in MTWII is situation when they are defending. Although AI army has better position they move toward player army. They don't use terrain adventage and pursue player army even they've got mainly infantry. They don't use shieldwall.
    Only in historical battles, Hastings, they behave logically: Anglo-saxon infantry is standing on hill and waiting (simillary Teutonic army in Grunwald)
    Can you change all AI armies, if they are defending, to behave like that?
    In description of early Norman Knights there is that their tactic is to throw spears and induce spearmen to leave formation and pursue. It will be great if worse trained units could do like that while better trained keep defence formation.
    What do you think?

  3. #63
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wareg View Post
    About AI contorled armies: one of main problems with AI in MTWII is situation when they are defending. Although AI army has better position they move toward player army. They don't use terrain adventage and pursue player army even they've got mainly infantry. They don't use shieldwall.
    Only in historical battles, Hastings, they behave logically: Anglo-saxon infantry is standing on hill and waiting (simillary Teutonic army in Grunwald)
    Can you change all AI armies, if they are defending, to behave like that?
    From what I've seen of Germanicu5' AI (in Third Age 3.0) the AI is definitely using their formations in good tactics. So I think they should do good!

    In description of early Norman Knights there is that their tactic is to throw spears and induce spearmen to leave formation and pursue. It will be great if worse trained units could do like that while better trained keep defence formation.
    What do you think?
    That's already possible, with balancing the EDU. If militia-grade units have a discipline of "untrained" they may charge without orders.

    Proud mod leader, modeller and public relations officer of Heiđinn Veđr: Total War


  4. #64

    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    It's amazing that in TGC almost everything is possible. Thanks for answer.

  5. #65

    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    As the titles says we are interesting to gather VISUAL info of warfare tactic and army formations that the facions of our list used in 9th-11th centuries!
    What we need is to avoid speculations(...)
    Maybe discussion about charges and formations which allow to repulse charging cavalry doesn't fit well to that topic frame but It is still tactic maneuver so I'm writing here. I were looking for some informations and here are conclusions:
    -Tight formation (especially in schiltron) of infantry with large shield and 1 handed weapon (no matter which) should stop enemy's cavalry charge with minimal losses. There is no space for horses between infantry's lines so horses will stop charging. Of course if infantry not panic and escape.
    -Such tight formation in case of infantry without shields, heavy armour or pike should have more problems. Charge also should be stopped but long cavalry lances will give cavalrymen adventage even without maximal charge speed.
    -Pikemen-no chance of frontal charge against them.
    -Disorganised infantry, loose formation - infantry should be massacred
    -Cavalry charge against cavalry. I think main factor is lenght of lance and skills in use It. Looses after this kind of charge should be high.
    I know that these conclusions aren't very innovatory but I'm interested how It will work in TGC.
    -Is It possible to maximally limit frontal AI cavalry charges against pikemen? (Germanicu5's AI?)
    -I don't think that breaking of infantry's morale before cavalry charge is possible to realise. But what do you think about very low morale for most of infatry and 'frigten foot' for all shock cavalry?
    -Maybe 'horde' formation and incomparably lower defence against charge for undisciplined infantry? That may show that only disciplined, tight formation can stop charge. Moreover this formation seems to be more natural for that kind of unit than square.
    -What factor in descr_unit is defence against charge? Total defence? If It is, increase of infantry defence in relation to charge value will entail also increase of cavalry defence and charges cavalry vs cavalry will be very ineffective... How to find solution?

  6. #66
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    I want to add few suggestion about Langbards and Frankish kingdoms; The Langobards now are absorbed in the Frankish Empire and its feudal system, from the 774 they adopted Frankish Cavalry tactics, infantry (now Italic and Lombards were amalgamated) is of low quality, at Olivetti 1024, Lombard foot were considered virtally useless, having no shields and were left in reserve with few cavalry "to maintain their courage", Caballarii/Milites fight mounted, and dismounted as Heavy infantry, only to attack or defend fortifications, the archers were drawn from the free Langobards and were good quality troops; The deployment was yet similar to the medieval times: A strong Noble Heavy Cavalry (now light armured followers are absorbed in the Knights groups forming the rear ranks), a mass of low quality infantry, frequently also without/or very few shields, incapable to perform a real shieldwall, and good or medium quality archers (the Langobards had good bows similar to the later saxon longbows).

    The real difference IMO is the feudal system developed during the Carolingian age: were the feudal system is developed, in the post Carolingians Western and Eastern Frankish Kingdoms, we can safely say that the main role in battle was performed by the Milites/Caballarii strike force, similar to the later medieval knights, who fought mounted and preferred a direct charge into the enemy line with the 'Iuvenes or Pueri', that is the followers, in the rear ranks of the formation, while the infantry, being low quality feudal levies, mainly spearmen, was barely able to defend its ground, played only a secondary support role for the Knights, and the bowmen, where available, provided the missile fire in the rear ranks ( more mass fire on the rear than skirmishers).
    In the areas were the feudal system not yet arrived the tactics (well described in the previous posts) are the boarhead/cuneus and shieldwall, here the tribal social structure allowed to deploy a good infantry but few or no heavy Cavalry.

    My informations are mainly from Gregory of Tours 'Historia Francorum', Eginard 'Life of Charlemagne', Erchempert 'Historia Langobardorum' and being a miniature wargamer I read many Wargame (really well documented) Books, Rules and army lists and obviously Osprey.

  7. #67
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    I want to add few suggestion about Langbards and Frankish kingdoms; The Langobards now are absorbed in the Frankish Empire and its feudal system, from the 774 they adopted Frankish Cavalry tactics, infantry (now Italic and Lombards were amalgamated) is of low quality, at Olivetti 1024, Lombard foot were considered virtally useless, having no shields and were left in reserve with few cavalry "to maintain their courage", Caballarii/Milites fight mounted, and dismounted as Heavy infantry, only to attack or defend fortifications, the archers were drawn from the free Langobards and were good quality troops; The deployment was yet similar to the medieval times: A strong Noble Heavy Cavalry (now light armured followers are absorbed in the Knights groups forming the rear ranks), a mass of low quality infantry, frequently also without/or very few shields, incapable to perform a real shieldwall, and good or medium quality archers (the Langobards had good bows similar to the later saxon longbows).

    The real difference IMO is the feudal system developed during the Carolingian age: were the feudal system is developed, in the post Carolingians Western and Eastern Frankish Kingdoms, we can safely say that the main role in battle was performed by the Milites/Caballarii strike force, similar to the later medieval knights, who fought mounted and preferred a direct charge into the enemy line with the 'Iuvenes or Pueri', that is the followers, in the rear ranks of the formation, while the infantry, being low quality feudal levies, mainly spearmen, was barely able to defend its ground, played only a secondary support role for the Knights, and the bowmen, where available, provided the missile fire in the rear ranks ( more mass fire on the rear than skirmishers).
    In the areas were the feudal system not yet arrived the tactics (well described in the previous posts) are the boarhead/cuneus and shieldwall, here the tribal social structure allowed to deploy a good infantry but few or no heavy Cavalry.

    My informations are mainly from Gregory of Tours 'Historia Francorum', Eginard 'Life of Charlemagne', Erchempert 'Historia Langobardorum' and being a miniature wargamer I read many Wargame (really well documented) Books, Rules and army lists and obviously Osprey.
    They actually got the Langobards perfectly. The Principality of Benevento was never conquered by the Franks and so didn't truly adopt their style of warfare. So therefore they would be using the tribal warfare you described

    Proud mod leader, modeller and public relations officer of Heiđinn Veđr: Total War


  8. #68
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    They got everything perfectly!!!!

    Heathen Storm is right the southern duchies of Spoleto and Benevento probably maintained the Langobardic Legislation so the army might be similar to the army of the Langobardic Kingdom of Italy before the Carolingian conquest: 8th century laws divided the Langobard into Armoured Cavalry, Unarmoured Cavalry, and Archers with shields.







    In 750 the Edict of King Astolfo states that: the land owners are divided in four categories and armed consequently:
    1. Owners of more than 7 farms (Case Masserie) had to supply: Horses, weapons and complete armour, in a quantity to be fixed progressively according to the numbers of farms owned.
    2. Owners of 7 or less farms had to supply: Personal armour and weapons and other horses, beside the personal use.
    3. Owners of at least 40 jugers of land but no farms had to supply: Personal horse, shield and lance.
    4. Minori Homines who owned less than 40 jugers of land or nothing had to supply: Quiver, arrows and bow.
    Astolfo took in consideration also the rich merchants without lands:
    1. Maiores et Potentes had to supply: Personal armour, shield and lance; personal horse and other ones.
    2. Sequentes had to supply: Personal shield and lance; personal horse and other ones.
    3. Minores had to supply: Quiver, bow and arrows.
    From this Law 24 years before the Carolingian Conquest, we can see the army divided in First Line Noble Heavy Cavalry, Second line of Unarmoured Cavalry, and Third Line of Infantry, mainly Archers in the role of support for the Cavalry. To this we could add the Urban Militias who were mainly Spearmen and Archers. Anyway over time, a more articulate social structure in the cities probably produced also a better Urban Infantry.

  9. #69
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: [Research] Warfare tactics and formations.

    I was recently browsing through some old history files on my discs and found these two formations for Bulgaria. The first one seems much better, so I translated it to English (second is Russian). The Russian one goes as follows (from top to bottom): 1. Battle formation of the Bulgarian army, 2. Scouting units, 3. Vanguard, 4. First battle line, 5. Second battle line, 6. Reserves, 7. Supplies and supply guards

  10. #70
    pacco's Avatar -master-of-none-
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    Icon2 [Preview] Muslim shields - donation to TGC

    My donation to TGC team - more variation = better mod.

    Last edited by AnthoniusII; February 26, 2012 at 01:28 PM.

    Skinner and modeller for Roma Surrectum
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  11. #71
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: Muslim shields - donation to TGC

    Copied to the TGC previews colection also!
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; February 26, 2012 at 01:28 PM.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  12. #72
    Constantius's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Preview] Muslim shields - donation to TGC

    Outstanding


    Signature made by Joar


  13. #73
    Matthćus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: [Preview] Muslim shields - donation to TGC

    great

  14. #74
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Opinions needed.

    Here we will post questions about anything that we want your opinion
    and you sence of taste in 2ndary matters of the mod.
    Few years ago i started as Dominion of the Sword researcher. When it came to UI cards issue i had the idea of ussing renders in Unit info cards.
    Something like this:


    These days all mods use ingame shots of the units they want to show.
    The thaught behind the use of renders is that the player will be able to see warriors details and understand the "status" the unit belongs.
    For example:
    Lets take the UI card above that shown Tagma ton Teichon.
    Even without description text a player sees right away that even if that unit is an archer one ,is also very heavily armored.

    Please post your opinions even if they are negative to this consept.
    That is the meaning of the thread..to find out what your thoughts are about some issues.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  15. #75

    Default Re: Opinions needed.

    It is quite surprising. The card looks like an heroes card in some MMORPG, but the good thing is that you can really see the unit, the man who compose it. It also adds a personnality to the unit, which are now more a group, but an union of differents man.

    You can easier see what is their place in the army, it is I think really a good idea, and I support it.

  16. #76
    Constantius's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Opinions needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arandir Tur-Anion View Post
    It is quite surprising. The card looks like an heroes card in some MMORPG, but the good thing is that you can really see the unit, the man who compose it. It also adds a personnality to the unit, which are now more a group, but an union of differents man.

    You can easier see what is their place in the army, it is I think really a good idea, and I support it.
    Yes it is a very good idea, the same will apply to buildings perhaps?


    Signature made by Joar


  17. #77
    Matthćus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Opinions needed.

    support

  18. #78
    Heathen Storm's Avatar Where's my axe?
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    Default Re: Opinions needed.

    That is a great idea. Maybe include several different variations of the unit, just to show the insane work that you guys do?

    Proud mod leader, modeller and public relations officer of Heiđinn Veđr: Total War


  19. #79

    Default Re: Opinions needed.

    Hi AnthoniusII!

    Looks good to me as well.

    I just discovered this modding project and I am already really impressed. It covers a very exciting era and area. That is going to be a great one

    Greetings,
    Tar-Narcano

  20. #80
    pacco's Avatar -master-of-none-
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    Default Re: Opinions needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Storm View Post
    That is a great idea. Maybe include several different variations of the unit, just to show the insane work that you guys do?

    Skinner and modeller for Roma Surrectum
    Under the patronage of Tone
    my shield collection




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