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Thread: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

  1. #1
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Icon4 [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.


    Here we will gather our fans sugestions about :


    • Noble titles
    • Military ranks
    • Anciliaries
    • Other traits such finanse focused ones.

    A small Example:


    Romans
    Noble/administration titles:

    • Eparchos
    • Exarch
    • Dux
    • Katepano

    Military ranks:

    • Comes
    • Taxiarches
    • Tourmarches
    • Strategos
    • Megas Domesticos
    • Majistrus

    Naval military ranks.

    • Drougarios tou ploimou
    • Megas Drougarios ton Ploimon
    • Megas Dux


    Diplomatic traits:

    • Logothetes tou Dromou
    • Paradynasteuon

    Financed based traits:

    • Officiales
    • Hartoularios
    • Domesticos ton Officialion
    • Sakelarios

    Family traits:

    • Novelisimos (royal familly member)
    • Kouropalates (conected by marriage with royal familly).
    • Diadohos (heir).


    Law and order focused traits:

    • Preator
    • Demarchos
    • Protosevastor
    • Logothetes tou Genikou



    Bulgarians
    Noble/administration titles:

    • Tsar (imperial)
    • Knyaz (royal)
    • Kavhan (rulerís deputy)
    • Ichirgu-boil/Chărgobilia (capitalís governor, third in rank)
    • Veliki bolyar (particularly high noble, member of the Council of the Great Boils)
    • Boil/Bolyar (high noble)
    • Bagain (low noble)
    • Komit (high administrative)
    • Tarkan (administrative, varying degree, depending on the other components of the compound-title)

    Military ranks:

    • Chelnik (strategos)
    • Kopan (high commander)
    • Minik (royal stable-master and commander of the royal cavalry)
    • Tisyashtnik (commander of 1000 men, hiliarchos)
    • Satnik (centurion)
    • Petdesetnik (commander of 50 men)
    • Desetnik (decurion)
    • Bagatur (champion)
    • Chigot (royal swordsman)
    • Kandidat (royal guard)

    Naval military ranks.

    • ?

    Diplomatic traits:

    • Sampsis (diplomat?)
    • Tălmach (translator)

    Financed based traits:

    • ?

    Family traits:

    • Kanartikin (heir)
    • Boila-tarkan (second-in-line)

    Law and order focused traits:

    • ?

    Other traits:

    • Samăchii (royal secretary)





    East Frankia
    Noble/administration titles:

    • Tutor
    • Rector

    Military ranks:

    • ?

    Naval military ranks.

    • ?

    Diplomatic traits:

    • ?

    Financed based traits:

    • ?

    Family traits:

    • ?

    Law and order focused traits:

    • ?



    Islamic Factions

    Noble/administration titles:

    • ?

    Military ranks:

    • ?

    Naval military ranks.

    • ?

    Diplomatic traits:

    • ?

    Financed based traits:

    • ?

    Family traits:

    • ?

    Law and order focused traits:

    • ?

    Hero titles :

    • Al adil saifaldeen = The fair and the sword of the religion. sounds like an name for an Abbasid caliphate.


    • Post the title ,trait or anciliary.
    • Explain what it means and in what sector fits.
    • Remember TGC mod's timeframe.
    • Remember this wont be a history knowlege contest .


    Last edited by AnthoniusII; September 10, 2011 at 10:15 AM.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  2. #2
    diez's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    smth i found about eastern roman navy...
    -Commander in Chief of the Byzantine Imperial Fleet was offcourse the Emperor/Vassileus or Autocrator.
    -Chief of the Royal Fleet (Vassilikon Ploimon) was the Megas Drungarios tou Ploimou/Grand Drungarius of the Fleet, rank equivalent to the modern Fleet Admiral.
    -Topoteretes (Supporter, perhaps a more accurate translation would be Suffragan). Rank similar to the modern Vice-Admiral.
    -Drungarios. Officer with specific duties (Drungarios tou Kolpou/Drungarius of the Gulf, for example, who had the duty to guard the entrance to the Bosporus).
    -Turmarches tou Ploimou/Turmarch of the Fleet. This officer administered the Turma, a division of a Thematic Fleet.
    -Komes/Count. The captain of detachment (one naval detachment equalled 3 or 5 ships) of a Thematic Fleet. In the Imperial Fleet, this officer held the title Protospatharios/First of the Sword or, Spatharokandidatos/Candidate of the Sword.
    -Sacellarios was the director of the fleet's financial resources (from the latin Sacellium)
    -Chartoularios was the caretaker of the fleet and head of the secretariat of the fleet (Senior Secretary).
    -Protomandator was the head of the corps of messengers (Senior Messenger).
    -Mandator was the officer entrusted with the delivery of orders and information (Messenger).
    -Protocaravos was the leader of the oar-bearers (Chief Oarsman)
    -Kentarchos or Ekatontarchos was the captain of a ship, who directed it from the prow, where his quarters ([the Cravatos) were located.
    -The fleet's finances were regulated by the Secreton tou Ploimou/ Secretariat of the Fleet or by the Secreton tes Thalasses/Secretariat of the Sea which mostly looked after the affairs of the merchant fleet

    i ll try to find for other factions too(not only navy)

  3. #3
    SpyrosM91's Avatar Despotes
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    @Antonius, the "Sekreton tou Genikou" has nothing to do with "Law and Order" issues...

    In the last couple of months i have made a very big research (i could say i have taken a PhD after all these i have read... ) about the Roman Administration System & Secretariat in the time of the Themes (and subsequently a "little" before their first appearance... )... i will make a similar system for Tsardoms (which is in latter age) in case the empire will be able to get on her feet...

    As a result i have made a plan of how all the bureaux of the Empire gradually transformed and evolved:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    i have made an "error" the " comes commerciorum" should be gone to the "Genikou" - not to the "Eidikou"




    The 4 (and latter) 5 "Financial" Bureaux (or Ministries if you like are these) are:

    Sekreton tou Genikou [General Finance Ministry] - responsible for the collection of all land tax, of customs tax and of all mines
    Sekreton tou Eidikou [Special Finance Ministry] - responsible for the "forbidden" goods and for the warehouses and military factories
    Sekreton tou Sakelliou [The Imperial Treasury] - where all the money from the Empire went before it was again restributed
    Sekreton tou (Basilikou) Vestiariou [The Mint] - responsible for all the Provincial and "Metropolitan" mints
    Sekreton ton Oikeiakon [Ministry of State Lands] - responsible for all the lands that belonged directly to the State (this ministry became independent from the "Genikon")
    all these were commanded by the Sakellarios (who put in his place in the "sekreton tou Sakelliou" the "chartoularios tou Sakelliou") and latter by the Megas Logothetes (or Logothetes ton Sekreton as he was named at first) and even latter by the Megas Logariastes ton Sekreton (Grand Accountant of the Bureaux)


    Sekreton tou Stratiotikou
    [Ministry of the Military (fisc) ] - this was a mixed ministry; it was responsible for the payment of the army and also for the levying of the troops, the condition of the defences etc. etc.... generaly of all the "administration-al" military affairs... as the Praetorian Prefectures did before...


    also if you notice in the chart above: four of the bureaux are painted green..... this ministries belong to the "Crown" (WARNING: the Empire had different bureaux for the Crown and the State...)... All the money from these ministries went to the Emperor and his family for their needs, their palaces' maintenance, their banquets (responsible for that was the "Kouratorikion ton Manganon") etc. etc. etc.
    Last edited by SpyrosM91; July 04, 2011 at 07:06 PM.
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  4. #4
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    Logothetes tou Genikou was the same as the modern minister of domestic afairs including finance afairs and law enforcement. All Preators reported to him.
    He was resposible of everything happened inside the empire's domain!
    Logothetes tou Dromou was the minister of foreign afairs!
    According to historians Sakelarios was the treasurer of the empire.
    Secretum or officialion was the ministry not the title of the minister.
    Chartoularios was a generic title.
    Ussualy was the person that was responsible for the local army suplies and the recruitmnet lists in his area!
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  5. #5
    SpyrosM91's Avatar Despotes
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Logothetes tou Genikou was the same as the modern minister of domestic afairs including finance afairs and law enforcement. All Preators reported to him.
    where did you find this??? i have never heard about that in all my books and sources...

    there where 7 kinds of Nobility offices (Ai dia Logou Aksiai) in the Empire:

    1. Strategoi - The generals of the provinces' armies
    2. Domestikoi - The generals of captial's armies
    3. Kritai - Judges
    4. Sekretikoi - Bureaucrats (mostly with financial responsibilities)
    5. Demokratai - Commanders of the Demoi
    6. Stratarchai - Marshals
    7. Aksiai Eidikai - Special Offices (like Epi tou Kanikliou etc. etc.)


    The Judges were: The Eparch of Constantinople, the Quaestor, the Epi ton Deiseon, some other minor officials like the Logothetes tou Praitoriou (subordinate of the Eparch), Protaskretes (ONLY in the late byzantine empire) etc. etc...... It has been observed (not by me...) that one of the "disadvantages" of the Empire was that there wasn't a firm and solid (like the finance ministries) Justice System... the power of justice was given in specific people like those ones above (and also the Praitores/Kritai of the Themes) but there wasn't any strick and monolithic Organization....the same happend with the Educational System....

    It is certain that, the "Logothetes tou genikou" came from the union of the offices of the "Sacrae Largitiones" (Sacred Finances) under the "Comes Sacrarum Largitionum" and of the "Genike Trapeza" of the Praetorian Prefecture, thus making the new Ministry's duties only financial... Also if you look the Logothetes' subordinates in the Ministry, not one of them has judicial and law enforcment duties.....



    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    Secretum or officialion was the ministry not the title of the minister.
    εννοείται βρε......



    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    According to historians Sakelarios was the treasurer of the empire.
    Chartoularios was a generic title.
    yes, there were Basilikoi Chartoularioi (in the palace courts), Chartoularioi (as officials in the ministries), Megaloi Charoularioi (heads of the departments; evolution of the former vicarii), and there were the two "Chartoularios tou Sakelliou" and "Chartoularios tou Vestiariou" who were in charge of the two equivalent Sekreta.

    Sakellarios, even after the reformations keeps his control over the Sakellion (Treasury), but its administration was given to the Chartoularios
    from "The Imperial Administrative System in the Ninth Century" by J. B. Bury

    [...]The history of the Sakellarios, so far as our meagre records enable us to discern it, has been traced above. At first he was simply the keeper of the Emperor's sakellion or treasury which received the surplus derived from the Imperial estates. In the seventh century, he took over the more specially financial functions of the ministers who managed the estates, and the Sakellion became an important ministry. As a treasury it was no longer merely the receptacle of a reserve fund for extraordinary expenses, but bore some of the regular state expenses. The third stage is reached when, probably in the eighth century, the Sakellarios (doubtless retaining the charge of the treasury) becomes a sort of Comptroller, with authority over all the financial ministries, while his place as head of the bureau of the Sakellion is taken by the "Chartoularios tou Sakelliou"[...]
    Last edited by SpyrosM91; July 04, 2011 at 07:17 PM.
    Proud Tsardoms Total War: Historian - Coder - Scripter - Mapper

  6. #6
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    I found them in Taktika of Leon VI the wise.
    I do not Preator was the Judge of each city according to that manual.
    Read "Taktika" from our Nikephorean peview Part I in CBUR.
    I think Leon knew better how he called his empire's officials.
    I am not sure what happened after 1400 though.
    Remember that many scholars used "comon language" terms but the official titles were kind diferent.
    You have done a great research here!

    Now we need similar in use titles and ranks for all the rest of our factions!
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  7. #7
    SpyrosM91's Avatar Despotes
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    I do not Preator was the Judge of each city according to that manual.
    no, it was the Judge of each Theme...

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    I found them in Taktika of Leon VI the wise.
    I do not Preator was the Judge of each city according to that manual.
    Read "Taktika" from our Nikephorean peview Part I in CBUR.
    in the extract it only speaks about these guys here:
    Chartoularios tou Thematos - (reported to the Stratiotikon)
    Protonotarios tou Thematos - (reported to the Sakellion)
    Praetor/Krites

    other officials in the Theme were:
    Commerkiarios - (reported to the Genikon): responsible for customs
    Chartoularios tou (Oxeos) Dromou - (reported to the Dromos): responsible for the roads, communication and intelligence of the theme
    Komes ton Ydaton - (reported to the Genikon): responsible for the aqueducts and water supplies
    Chartoularios ton Arklon - (reported to the Genikon): responsible for the land taxes and mines


    μήπως σου βρίσκεται κανά μεγαλύτερο κομμάτι για τον Λογοθέτη γιατι με ενδιαφέρει...
    Last edited by SpyrosM91; July 05, 2011 at 07:07 AM.
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  8. #8
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    This is my old list of the titles of the Pagan Bulgars. I've made it years ago, so I might have to re-check it, but most of it should be ok. Only a few would have to be replaced/removed, thanks to the Christianization - the ruler's no longer a kanasubigi/"khan", but a knyaz (later tsar) and there were probably no more kolobers (replaced by Christian priests). The rest is pretty much still the same, IIRC, since we can see f.e. the kavkan's title surviving even till around 1070.

  9. #9
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    Quote Originally Posted by NikeBG View Post
    This is my old list of the titles of the Pagan Bulgars. I've made it years ago, so I might have to re-check it, but most of it should be ok. Only a few would have to be replaced/removed, thanks to the Christianization - the ruler's no longer a kanasubigi/"khan", but a knyaz (later tsar) and there were probably no more kolobers (replaced by Christian priests). The rest is pretty much still the same, IIRC, since we can see f.e. the kavkan's title surviving even till around 1070.
    Hahaha i was about to ask you this!!right now that i am posting an answer to your question in th edev forum!
    Remember that when you will have something that you will be sure please modify the 1st post your self as you can do so as local admin in the forum!
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  10. #10
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    Yeah, I've noticed - I've almost edited several posts instead of quoting them, by now.


    Edit: Ok, this is the updated file with the Bulgar titles.
    Last edited by NikeBG; July 06, 2011 at 01:55 AM.

  11. #11
    VINC.XXIII's Avatar Retired
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    "AOR" Title for Corsica(rebels)

    The first count of Corsica, few years after 814 AD.

    IXe Hugo marchio dominus Corsice et judex Calaritanus

    Residence in Venaco(Venitium/Venicium), High-Corsica(center), since the roman times an oppidum existed there.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    The major title in TGC could be "Rector et Tutor Corsica" if the eastern franks have the Island.
    Last edited by VINC.XXIII; July 06, 2011 at 06:05 AM.
    The Third Samnite War, a Total War: Rome 2 mod on pre-roman Italy







    Patronized by phoenix[illusion]
    [/SPOILER]

  12. #12
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    Thanks Rus-Bey! Title notticed!
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  13. #13
    diez's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    some military ranks of the bulgars:
    The kavhan was one of the most important officials in the First Bulgarian Empire. According to the generally accepted opinion, he was the second most important person in the state after the Bulgarian ruler. He had a number of responsibilities and concentrated huge power and authority. The kavhan was a commander-in-chief of the Bulgarian Army and one of the primary diplomats in the state. He was a member of the Bolyar Counsel(Nobles Council) and one of the most important advisers to the Bulgarian ruler; the kavhan was sometimes his regent or co-ruler. The kavhan was a high magistrate and substitute to the ruler when the latter is absent from the capital. He is also attributed to have been a judge.
    concluding,he was reponsible for the army when the king was absent,and the supreme commander after him

    The Ichirgu-boil or Chargobilya was a high-ranking official in the First Bulgarian Empire. He was the commander of the garrison of the capital and was the third most important person in the state after the ruler and the Kavhan(see above). In peace-time the ichirgu-boil had diplomatic functions. According to some data the ichirgu-boil personally commanded a squad of 400 heavy cavalrymen.

    the title u have already mentioned on the bulgarian ranks,i know it as Tarkhan and not Tarkan(some historians claim he was equal to byzantine strategos)

    The military ranks from lowest to highest were bagain, bagatur, boil, tarkhan
    Last edited by diez; July 06, 2011 at 02:22 PM.

  14. #14
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    See post number 10, please.
    Also, bagain and boil are not military ranks, but titles, designating the lower and the upper class of the nobility.
    Though your mentioning of the strategos reminds me that I've missed one other title (of Slavic, not Bulgar origin, which is why it was missing from the original file, which was only about Bulgar titles) - according to Kekaumenos, "on the language of the Bulgarians the strategos is called chelnik (τζελνίκος)", so that one can be added as well.

  15. #15
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    Bagain,Boil,Bagatur can be anciliary titles that will be given to persons to define achievements or character or class issues!
    @chelnik
    That can be one of the highest ranks but Bulgarians will combine "steppe" and roman styles in their titles.

    I think Comes could exist for Bulgarians too to show the Roman influence in their military/social structures.
    Remember Cometopulla ...
    Last edited by AnthoniusII; July 07, 2011 at 07:05 AM.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  16. #16
    NikeBG's Avatar Sampsis
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    Just remember that the Bulgarian version of "comes" is "komit(a)" (I've included it in the list, so no worry).

  17. #17
    dannyalex's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    Greetings i have the book " Tactica " from Byzantine Emperor Leo_vi_the_wise who reign was from 886 until 912,it has a real good part called "Chapter IV - On the Division of the Host and the Condition of the Officers''.do u wanted guys?

  18. #18
    AnthoniusII's Avatar XXI ARMORED BRIGADE
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    Quote Originally Posted by dannyalex View Post
    Greetings i have the book " Tactica " from Byzantine Emperor Leo_vi_the_wise who reign was from 886 until 912,it has a real good part called "Chapter IV - On the Division of the Host and the Condition of the Officers''.do u wanted guys?
    My friend thank you for your offer!+rep.
    But Tactica is already the main basis of our creations for Romans.
    See here: CBUR Thematic armies preview.

    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  19. #19
    dannyalex's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    ok

  20. #20
    Bagatyr's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: [Open research topic] Trait,Ranks,Anciliaries lists.

    you have the bulgarian titles why they are not still added ?




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