What would shake your faith?

[Ancient Aliens]

I recently watched a (terrible) movie about the bones of Jesus being discovered, and it brought up the topic between me and a religious friend of mine. Now, when I ask this, I am asking out of pure curiousity, I do not mean to offend. What exactly would cause you theists to question your faith? Would it require archaeological evidence of the mortality of a particular religious figure? Or would Quetzalcoatl have to manifest in front of you and tell you that your respective faith is wrong?

What exactly (if anything) would cause a loss of faith for you, theists?

And now for the transverse (in an effort to be fair). Atheists, what would cause you to turn towards belief in the divine?

[Squiggle]

New historical evidence that shows it likely Jesus was not resurrected. That is the entire faith right there, nothing else is particularly relevant.

[Ancient Aliens]

Hold on, my computer shut down prior to editing the thread the way I wanted it to be, sorry Squiggle.

EDIT: Sorry about that, the thread is fixed

[Col. Tartleton]

New historical evidence that shows it likely Jesus was not resurrected. That is the entire faith right there, nothing else is particularly relevant.

Do you also need new historical evidence that shows it likely Ramses wasn't actually a God? Since I'm pretty sure everyone in Egypt thought he was and practically all the records suggest he was and even the ones that don't make him sound like a super hero. I mean they call him "The Great Ancestor" and only halfway into his reign did they formally deify him and pass on the throne to a son who he easily outlived.



I mean if it wasn't for his mortality...

... But on the other hand his remains survived over 3200 years which would qualify him as a miracle worker according to the Catholic Church... Saint Ramses the Great; Chosen of Ra (Ozymandias basically means Chosen of the Creator)

I mean at least we know Ramses was real for certain. And that his immortal shell that housed his God-Soul (I'm allowed to have fun with this right?) will remain forever and ever until the stars burn out and the icy void fades to black.

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I don't think I could be convinced otherwise. It's not just like I don't think God is there although I lack evidence. I can't even foresee a purpose for it. I can sort of see the Brahman or Tao or Pantheist kind of God. The "Quantum Field" of Quantum mechanics or whatever, but some sort of being? It doesn't fit the way I see the pieces.

My problem is I don't get what God actually is or does or any of that. Prime Mover? Doesn't need to be intelligent, it can be the churning waves of the sea. God seems like an extra step. When people talk of the oneness, okay that's this ocean of potential reality, but I can't really see the whole thing. I mean at best I can sort of make sense of the Trinity as being a rudimentary version of the Trimurti.

Yahweh = Brahma; The Holy Spirit = Vishnu; and Jesus = Shiva

Creation, Preservation, and Transformation Α-Ω Alpha and Omega

But they're metaphorical.

[Don in the North]

Do you also need new historical evidence that shows it likely Ramses wasn't actually a God? Since I'm pretty sure everyone in Egypt thought he was and practically all the records suggest he was and even the ones that don't make him sound like a super hero. I mean they call him "The Great Ancestor" and only halfway into his reign did they formally deify him and pass on the throne to a son who he easily outlived.



I mean if it wasn't for his mortality...

... But on the other hand his remains survived over 3200 years which would qualify him as a miracle worker according to the Catholic Church... Saint Ramses the Great; Chosen of Ra (Ozymandias basically means Chosen of the Creator)

I mean at least we know Ramses was real for certain. And that his immortal shell that housed his God-Soul (I'm allowed to have fun with this right?) will remain forever and ever until the stars burn out and the icy void fades to black.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't think I could be convinced otherwise. It's not just like I don't think God is there although I lack evidence. I can't even foresee a purpose for it. I can sort of see the Brahman or Tao or Pantheist kind of God. The "Quantum Field" of Quantum mechanics or whatever, but some sort of being? It doesn't fit the way I see the pieces.

My problem is I don't get what God actually is or does or any of that. Prime Mover? Doesn't need to be intelligent, it can be the churning waves of the sea. God seems like an extra step. When people talk of the oneness, okay that's this ocean of potential reality, but I can't really see the whole thing. I mean at best I can sort of make sense of the Trinity as being a rudimentary version of the Trimurti.

Yahweh = Brahma; The Holy Spirit = Vishnu; and Jesus = Shiva

Creation, Preservation, and Transformation Α-Ω Alpha and Omega

But they're metaphorical.

maybe ramses was a vampire?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

or maybe the actor bill nighy went back in time for a documentry to prove ramses wasnt a god and ended up being mistaken for ramses himself and decided he had a better life being worshipped as a god than an actor

[basics]

" I mean at least we know Ramses was real for certain. And that his immortal shell that housed his God-Soul (I'm allowed to have fun with this right?) will remain forever and ever until the stars burn out and the icy void fades to black. "

Col. Tartleton,

So, what does Ramses do for them that know he was real against those whose lives Jesus Christ has turned around and is still turning around? If anyone was going to find proof of His earthly Being by finding His bones surely that would have been the Jews since they believe He lived but could never find His remains and would no doubt be delighted if even now they could.

[Col. Tartleton]

" I mean at least we know Ramses was real for certain. And that his immortal shell that housed his God-Soul (I'm allowed to have fun with this right?) will remain forever and ever until the stars burn out and the icy void fades to black. "

Col. Tartleton,

So, what does Ramses do for them that know he was real against those whose lives Jesus Christ has turned around and is still turning around? If anyone was going to find proof of His earthly Being by finding His bones surely that would have been the Jews since they believe He lived but could never find His remains and would no doubt be delighted if even now they could.

Jesus didn't change your life, you did. The "Jesus" in your heart of hearts is a projection of your true self based on what you imagine Jesus to be like.

I'm not sure what happened at the resurrection or that any of it happened at all. Odds are the followers did believe it happened. I will say though he could have easily survived the crucifixion using meditation and simply have awoken in the tomb then escaped and then contacted his followers with some final goodbyes once more before either succumbing to his wounds or simply going abroad and fading into myth.

But whatever happened we will not find Jesus' remains in Golgotha. That I am certain. Somewhere else? Perhaps, but why should they have survived 2,000 years and how would we know him. A body of proof is almost certainly impossible to find.

Also Judaism isn't going to desperately search for Jesus' bones, they honestly don't care. He wasn't the guy, their evidence is that the end of days or whatever hasn't come.

[Cooraan]

Jesus didn't change your life, you did. The "Jesus" in your heart of hearts is a projection of your true self based on what you imagine Jesus to be like.

I'm not sure what happened at the resurrection or that any of it happened at all. Odds are the followers did believe it happened. I will say though he could have easily survived the crucifixion using meditation and simply have awoken in the tomb then escaped and then contacted his followers with some final goodbyes once more before either succumbing to his wounds or simply going abroad and fading into myth.

Wait....you think it's possible that someone could survive a crucifixion, escape a tomb, and then vanish? You are aware what happens to the body during a crucifixion right?

[basics]

" Jesus didn't change your life, you did. The "Jesus" in your heart of hearts is a projection of your true self based on what you imagine Jesus to be like. "

Col. Tartleton,

That would be fine if Jesus had been in my heart from the beginning but if truth be told He wasn't. Yet, as truth must always come out, He was on the tip of my tongue where hardly an hour in each day that His name was used in an abusive way. That's my only recollection of Him since way back as a child I used to sing about Him in Sunday School.

If as you say this is now my true self, what stopped me being that from infancy on? You see this is where you guys get the thing all wrong with the assumption that men and women can change their natures from one thing to another. Like you I was born a sinner, so like you I lived as sinners do never knowing the difference that I now do. Indeed I could be said to have been religious in a frivolous way without dealing with my sin which of course I couldn't do anyway.

So, what happened to make the difference? I started to have dreams and visions that at first had no significance in my life and it wasn't till I heard the Gospel for the very first time that personalisation crept in. That is that I was being drawn to Jesus in a way that had never happened before. Whatever the pastor said, and he didn't know me from Adam, he was getting at me through the word personally.

Here was a man who from early life had been his own boss and even the people that employed me understood that. I made things happen then, but the then was no more because God had laid me into a position where what I thought or did didn't matter any more. He was in charge and I was His recipient, literally having no control over things that were now happening to me. He only saw a sinner and I was beginning to get the message.

If I had any true self that only came out when I realised what Jesus Christ did for me, basics, on a large chunk of wood some two thousand odds years earlier. But of course there wasn't any true self, just a man discovering his sin and who paid for it on a cross. When a young lass called out to me that she had the greatest light in the world, I knew then that that was what I needed and on my knees I went to feel the love of God encompass me from toe to head leaving me then to have the best sleep ever I had, without the compulsory pain killers that I needed night after night.

No my friend, you have got this all wrong, perhaps for the right reasons in your mind, but wrong all the same. Since then the dreams and visions never stopped so all that I can write of now is not of me rather the Holy Spirit of God working in me and through me. Is this my true self? That I as yet don't know but I can tell you this that if God hadn't come into my life what a great deal I would have missed nad we wouldn't be conversing like this.

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I hope I look that good when I'm 3200 years old, minus the walnut-eyelids and the crumbling nose. Regardless, he still looks younger than many of today's elderly.

For me to become a devout theist, I would need to see an act of god, one which I am 100% certain is an act of god, and I would need to see it several times to be sure that my drink wasn't spiked the previous times.

[Ancient Aliens]

For myself, as an atheist, I would most likely have to have a direct confrontation with a deity; observable evidence. That being said, if I was to have a direct confrontation with a deity, I would most likely question my sanity, in addition to accepting the possibility of the divine. Having a second individual (or multiple individuals) observe such a confrontation would be undeniable to me.

[hardrive]

For myself, as an atheist, I would most likely have to have a direct confrontation with a deity; observable evidence. That being said, if I was to have a direct confrontation with a deity, I would most likely question my sanity, in addition to accepting the possibility of the divine. Having a second individual (or multiple individuals) observe such a confrontation would be undeniable to me.

You seem to actually consider the existence of deities to be an option!? You can't be an atheist!

But really, even your #1 post is every vague and mentioning Quetzalcoatl is making fun of your own title! Now, how could you!!

And now for the transverse (in an effort to be fair). Atheists, what would cause you to turn towards belief in the divine?

Although I'm a Non-Theist in this regard: The issue regarding that question isn't "what could cause you to" but "what to?". As there is no "what to", the question of "what could turn you towards belief in the divine.." is like stating: "The divine this! - So what could make you believe in the divine." And that is really nonsense. I mean, I could ask "What makes you believe in X" You could maybe say: "Nothing (will ever make me believe in X)" And by stating that you will never believe in X, you actually confirm that X exists, but only say that you don't believe in X -- although you just confirmed X's existence. And that would be odd - or not?!

[XIII]

Echoing Squiggle, historical evidence disproving the Resurrection of Jesus will also shake my faith. The Resurrection is the one, singular core of Christianity and we rise and fall with it.

[Jack04]

Echoing Squiggle, historical evidence disproving the Resurrection of Jesus will also shake my faith. The Resurrection is the one, singular core of Christianity and we rise and fall with it.

What kind of historical evidence?

For me, any kind of observable evidence would do it, that or a direct confrontation. The real trouble is, I am struggling to think of a specific act that would convince me, beside the direct confrontation.

[XIII]

What kind of historical evidence?

For me, any kind of observable evidence would do it, that or a direct confrontation. The real trouble is, I am struggling to think of a specific act that would convince me, beside the direct confrontation.

If Jesus' body is discovered, for starters...

[Jack04]

If Jesus' body is discovered, for starters...

Without wanting to sound too cynical (and I'm sure it would shake your beliefs to the extent that you say), I wonder how long it would take after such a discovery for a work-around to be found? "Oh, he didn't really ascend in his body, that was just metaphorical". Also, as I'm rather ignorant of the Bible, does it explicitly state that his physical body ascended to heaven?

Edit: I'd just like to reinforce what I said. I'm not saying that you personally would find a way around it, I have no doubt that you are entirely sincere in what you say. I just suspect that The Religion would find a way to live on.

[Ancient Aliens]

Without wanting to sound too cynical (and I'm sure it would shake your beliefs to the extent that you say), I wonder how long it would take after such a discovery for a work-around to be found? "Oh, he didn't really ascend in his body, that was just metaphorical". Also, as I'm rather ignorant of the Bible, does it explicitly state that his physical body ascended to heaven?

Edit: I'd just like to reinforce what I said. I'm not saying that you personally would find a way around it, I have no doubt that you are entirely sincere in what you say. I just suspect that The Religion would find a way to live on.

As Epicurean said, I am impressed by and respectful of the fact that certain theists would abandon their faith upon contradictory evidence being discovered, but as Jack said, I am a bit cynical of this. After arguing your theistic beliefs for years of your life, would you simply abandon your religion, or the notion of a god? Or would you find a workaround, or possibly adhere to a new faith?

I agree with what an earlier poster said, though, that the presence of a diety or deities would not make me any more inclined to worship such a being, it would just make me accept the existence of a deity, that is all.

[Justinian]

Echoing Squiggle, historical evidence disproving the Resurrection of Jesus will also shake my faith. The Resurrection is the one, singular core of Christianity and we rise and fall with it.

I find it amusing that the only thing that could shake your faith is something that is almost impossible. Disproving that one event happened to one person 2,000 years ago is almost as unlikely as proving that the same event did actually happen... and the onus is on you believers to prove it happened, not on the unbelievers to prove it didn't.

And now for the transverse (in an effort to be fair). Atheists, what would cause you to turn towards belief in the divine?

I don't know, man. I guess a physical manifestation of God that I could see, touch and talk to, but I'd be far more likely to assume I'd gone insane than to think God was real.

[XIII]

I find it amusing that the only thing that could shake your faith is something that is almost impossible. Disproving that one event happened to one person 2,000 years ago is almost as unlikely as proving that the same event did actually happen... and the onus is on you believers to prove it happened, not on the unbelievers to prove it didn't.

The question was what would shake my faith and I was being honest. Although, I don't see what would be so impossible about that? Anymore impossible than this, for instance:

I don't know, man. I guess a physical manifestation of God that I could see, touch and talk to, but I'd be far more likely to assume I'd gone insane than to think God was real.

Not impossible in the sense that God couldn't do it, mind you, but that He wouldn't because it would impinge upon your free will.

[Veliky Kaiser Theos]

Not impossible in the sense that God couldn't do it, mind you, but that He wouldn't because it would impinge upon your free will.

Nonsense. He/She was glad to intervene in world affairs less than 2000 years ago. What's changed? The only relevant thing that's changed is people's capacity for critical thought.