Instability of religion

[Banana Jelly]

Religion is very un-stable. It's not much the matter of believing what they say, rather then the fact you are born into it. Thus you believe everything it says.

Take a religious man, preferably a christian. Had he been born with muslim parents, he would have been muslim rather then christian.

Religion is a matter of what your parents are, more then what you believe to be true most of the time.

However, atheism and agnosticism does not have the luxury of that. Much of the atheists and agnostics actually went astray from their parents and through their knowledge of the world they see, lead to their conclusion.


Anyone want to refute, add on? I am a theist though however.

[Jack04]

All beliefs/lack of beliefs (and not just those regarding theism) are heavily influenced by one's environment and education, atheism and agnosticism included.

Edit: Also, I don't think I would call that instability. To me, stability would describe the tendency for something to change once it has assumed its initial position. So a religion's stability would be quantified by how likely it was for an adherent to that religion choosing to change faith, not the fact that the adherents initial faith was heavily environment dependent.

[Claudius Gothicus]

Religion(this means theism and not specific form of religious thinking) in the Western Hemisphere has been unstable ever since Enlightenment set foot on European Minds.

This however doesn't mean that religion in the West will die out like many have been predicting ever since the 1960's. Religions are Institutions, objective constructions that have specific rules, impose specific roles and specific behaviors to it's followers.

Religions are, like any other institution, logically sound. They have areas entirely dedicated to reformulate and maintain the legitimacy of their premises and will react effectively against any individual that, within their realm, tries to suppress his/her role or externally(this means from outside the specifically determined areas of legitimacy formulation) change it.

The problem with religions is that like any other institution today they are facing individuals with ever changing roles and EXTERNAL(as in completely external to their dominion and institutional realm) denial or challenging. The historical development of Science, Independent Philosophy and the change in people's minds that it carried acted as a form of ''counter institution'' that systematically contradicts and denies the internal logic of Religions.

This leads to the disintegration of the old ''logical formulas for legitimacy'' and creation of new ones that are not generally approved by the old ''institutions''. A clear example of this is the systematic individualization and decentralization of religious movements. This of course is also product of the wide availability of knowledge today.

But the reason why science, philosophy or other forms of ''ideological institutions'' have not been able to significantly suppress religious thinking is that they have not been able to provide a good enough replacement for ''the common man''. I think that human beings have a psychological need/conditioning to make ''wholes'', we need to formulate total universes where everything makes sense and correlates, god does that, science does not. And the common man, who doesn't have the time to reflex on science or philosophy, can't handle ''incomplete universals''.

[Banana Jelly]

Well instability, is a state of lacking stability. So definitions can vary in relation to what type of stability we're talking about. A religions stability would be determined by (in my opinion) how many followers actually chose thus religion without the influence of the environment. Thus any bias is rooted out. Religion isn't stable because environmental issues heavily affect the choice of the persons opinion towards said religion. For example someone from Israel would prefer Judaism, more then for example somebody from Syria. It's a matter of luck as to who the followers are. As a result of this "luck" my conclusion was that it was un-stable.

[Cooraan]

Atheism and Agnosticism are the same way, you just have to give it more time. I saw a documentary of kids growing up with Atheists parents who had stated they were atheist because it's what their parents believed. Generally people don't really start thinking about their beliefs in-depth till 16+; at least that's how I was. I imagine it's also a matter of trust and how a child views their parents. Parents are essentially their caretakers and instructors most of their lives. I did this as well as a child, I trusted my parents beliefs as true because they had always done right with me. So I wouldn't say its a matter of instability.

[mw2xboxplayer]

Religion is very un-stable. You believe everything it says.

And thus, terrorists were born.

[Banana Jelly]

And thus, terrorists were born.

Nice try, but no. It's not even in the line of topic we're discussing about either, so nice off-topic/strawman remark. Plus the level of ignorance in this post is outstanding.

[mw2xboxplayer]

Nice try, but no. It's not even in the line of topic we're discussing about either, so nice off-topic/strawman remark. Plus the level of ignorance in this post is outstanding.

My error, it was my misunderstanding of the word "unstable".

What you say is true, religious views are usually inherited from parents to child. However, if that child has not been completely indoctrinated (For example, like the many Middle Eastern children that are brainwashed into becoming extremists.) then that child has the choice to continue believing in their religion or to convert/become atheistic. The parent's views are not the only factor determining the child's religion.

[Banana Jelly]

My error, it was my misunderstanding of the word "unstable".

What you say is true, religious views are usually inherited from parents to child. However, if that child has not been completely indoctrinated (For example, like the many Middle Eastern children that are brainwashed into becoming extremists.) then that child has the choice to continue believing in their religion or to convert/become atheistic. The parent's views are not the only factor determining the child's religion.

I'll try to bring my point I wrote in my other thread about Atheism/Agnosticism. It's not a matter of being indoctrinated in the Middle East or anything. It's much more of the fact that information flow is less available in those countries. If you look at the statistics of the world, its actually the poorer countries which are more religious, then the western world. Their are many friends of mine who used to be extremely religious and go to church almost every week without a miss, but then soon started to become atheistic. I don't really believe it's the fact that you are baptized when you are a child, because you already believe everything your parents say without question. Unless you became baptized at the age of 15 or 16, I doubt it would be the reason as to why. It's usually in the west, you see this type of conversion to Atheism and Agnosticism. Well, if you see the correlation between the poorer countries and richer countries to religion.

[Sadreddine]

Well, if you see the correlation between the poorer countries and richer countries to religion.

Or you could understand it thus: a 'rich' man has its basic needs covered and therefore tends to become comfortable and hedonistic, only wishing to fullfill his desires 'here and now', attributes that are opposed to God's message in most religions. Religion is then understood as an unneccesary limitation that 'ruin the fun', and is conveniently disregarded/ignored/dilluted. As we see in the 'west' and the rest of the 'civilized world'.

Your average 'western' fresh atheist teenager barely knows where his nose ends. I've been one of those and know how it feels.

The 'poor man', on the contrary, is very used to the hardships of life and is really grateful for the little he has. He is more likely to understand and adhere to religious codes and limitations.

In sum I think that 'knowledge' is not the most important factor that determines the % of religious population of a country, but the 'comfortability' value a concrete society offers. With the 'homogeneization of thought' the social networks are creating at a global scale, I expect this gap to widen at an unprecedented rate.

[The Million Dollar Prons]

Religion is very un-stable. It's not much the matter of believing what they say, rather then the fact you are born into it. Thus you believe everything it says.

Funny thing about Christianity, none of the early Christians were born Christians.

Take a religious man, preferably a christian. Had he been born with muslim parents, he would have been muslim rather then christian.

Except all the people that convert to Christianity.

Religion is a matter of what your parents are, more then what you believe to be true most of the time.

Which is why my brother became an atheist and I roll with the orthodox christianity, because both my parents were atheistic orthodox christians.

However, atheism and agnosticism does not have the luxury of that. Much of the atheists and agnostics actually went astray from their parents and through their knowledge of the world they see, lead to their conclusion.

Ah Crap I thought this was gonna be a thread but it turned out to just be an UGHNNN ATHEISTS #1 thread now I'm like John Cena sorrounded by the members of the original Nexus and you'd best believe i'm gonna go down throwing punches

However, Scientolgoists do not have the luxury of that. Much of the scientologists actually went astray from their parents and through their knowledge of the world they see, lead to their conclusion.


I'm expecting you to make a thread expressing positivyt of scientology next, and I'll be there too WORD LIFE

[Banana Jelly]

Funny thing about Christianity, none of the early Christians were born Christians.

Nor were the early Muslims, early Hindus, early Jews. We are talking about the present.

Except all the people that convert to Christianity.

There are about 1.5 billion christians, and only 2 million converts yearly to Christianity. 2 million isn't much to be honest out of 1.5 billion. But that's besides the point as well. What we are talking about is that your religion could change based on your parents religion. Plus, the conversions further support my case, because you converted to christianity, after years of believing in the same religion your parents believed.

Which is why my brother became an atheist and I roll with the orthodox christianity, because both my parents were atheistic orthodox christians.

Cool story bro. As with all other statistics, there are always exceptions to the case. What I talk about is clearly in the general view, without pointing out too many individual cases. In general cases, people are what their parents believe... Until they become old enough to decide by themselves what they want to be.

Ah Crap I thought this was gonna be a thread but it turned out to just be an UGHNNN ATHEISTS #1 thread now I'm like John Cena sorrounded by the members of the original Nexus and you'd best believe i'm gonna go down throwing punches

Im not atheist or agnostic. But hell yeah im a rockstar.

However, Scientolgoists do not have the luxury of that. Much of the scientologists actually went astray from their parents and through their knowledge of the world they see, lead to their conclusion.

I don't know where you are getting at. Either completely irrelevant, or a fail way to respond. But i lol'd at you trying to compare scientology with atheism/agnostic.

I'm expecting you to make a thread expressing positivyt of scientology next, and I'll be there too WORD LIFE

brb creating thread on scientology

[O.Chrysostomos]

There are about 1.5 billion christians, and only 2 million converts yearly to Christianity. 2 million isn't much to be honest out of 1.5 billion. But that's besides the point as well. What we are talking about is that your religion could change based on your parents religion. Plus, the conversions further support my case, because you converted to christianity, after years of believing in the same religion your parents believed.

Off topic (I think) but I felt I should correct you.

There aren't 1.5 billion Christians in the world (more like 2.2 billion), and it's not just 2 million Muslims (I assume you meant Muslims; others convert to Christianity in places like China) who convert to Christianity a year.

According to a scholar on Al-Jazeera TV (quoted here in Orthodoxy Today) 6 million leave Islam to Christianity in Africa alone.

According to this Islamic website 2 million leave Islam and convert to Orthodoxy in Russia.

Religion by its nature shouldn't be unstable because then people who are religiously inclined will leave that religion for one which offers a degree of stability.

[leeho730]

Bunch of lies are always unstable. Blessed are the ignorant.

[SigniferOne]

Cool story bro. As with all other statistics, there are always exceptions to the case.

I was also an atheist, until I became a Christian.

In general cases, people are what their parents believe.

Yeah, in just the same way that children of atheist parents are born into atheism -- they certainly will not hear a compelling case being made for any other worldview.

only 2 million converts yearly to Christianity. 2 million isn't much to be honest

[Banana Jelly]

I was also an atheist, until I became a Christian.

Brool story co. As with all other statistics, there are always exceptions to the case. Also, it's strange, and I found that most most atheists who become religious were or used to be part of a religion or were theist before. But ofcourse that's without statistics. Jus' sayin from personal perspective.

Yeah, in just the same way that children of atheist parents are born into atheism -- they certainly will not hear a compelling case being made for any other worldview.

What they do in their late teens, early adulthood is of no concern. What is being argued is basically religion mostly depending on parents. Every child is basically under the authority of his/her parents religion, and even believes all to be true until they actually feel the need to question their religion and see what's true or not (not necessarily conversion). However, that's not of importance, as to what's the main point being said.

Yeah, mistake. Should have actually googled that, then trying to remember what I knew from 2 years (still a failure).

[SigniferOne]

What is being argued is basically religion mostly depending on parents.

Atheism mostly depending on parents.

Every child is basically under the authority of his/her parents religion

Every child is basically under the authority of his/her parents atheism.

, and even believes all to be true until they actually feel the need to question their

... their atheism.

[Jack04]

Sig is correct. All beliefs (especially those taken up in childhood) are heavily influenced by the parents, unsurprisingly. I am quite certain that an important reason that I have always been atheist or agnostic is that I was brought up with almost no mention of religion.

[Banana Jelly]

Atheism mostly depending on parents.


Every child is basically under the authority of his/her parents atheism.



... their atheism.

Sig is correct. All beliefs (especially those taken up in childhood) are heavily influenced by the parents, unsurprisingly. I am quite certain that an important reason that I have always been atheist or agnostic is that I was brought up with almost no mention of religion.

Ok I see what you guys did their now.


You gaise got me wrong. Ofcourse atheism is the same with Christianity and other religions. I meant atheism which was brought up differently through other means. Which is basically atheism conversion. (However, you may think it's irrelevant to the OP, however, considering Atheism majority of converts come from people who once believed in a god, it is relevant).

[basics]

" Religion is very un-stable. It's not much the matter of believing what they say, rather then the fact you are born into it. Thus you believe everything it says. "

Banana Jelly,

Of course it is. Why do you think that the writers in the Bible have this habit of condemning it. A child's knowledge begins with its parents and their characteristics become in miniature that of their mums and dads.