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    Default The Zeus machine!

    The Zeus machine!

    Firstly, there are many ideas and potentials here, so don’t take it too seriously, take the time to read it all and have fun!

    We can easily imagine that one day man will build a computer as powerful as the human brain, indeed that once that threshold has been reached we will go on to build far more impressive machines with vastly superior intellects to ours. For me what will be far more impressive still is when we build a machine that is not only a massive intellect, but is not limited by imitating our single perspective view of the world.

    The ultimate machine would have an intellect capable of not only seeing things en-masse, as like a group of people all seeing the world from different angles of perspective [and deriving knowledge from that], ~ after all that would be the same as what humanity does for science etc, but it would be able to see in a multi-perceptive manner!

    The Zeus machine would see many things at once e.g. when we look at light slit experiments we see light acting as a particle, a wave, or a field and other QM effects. We, even groups of us all viewing such effects at once, can only see from our singular perspective, as a scientist on the documentary series, ‘through the wormhole’ recently said; we cannot know what’s going on, we cant and don’t get it!

    A simple analogy would be something like this; there are a group of people standing in a line along a beachfront all watching the sun set, each of them would report an observation of the event and the group of them would report the same thing from different angles of perspective ~ from where they were standing. The Zeus machine would see the whole image, all the sunsets with golden reflections upon the seas surface, the most of the sea would be covered in a golden reflection composed of all the views the people would get singularly.

    The Turing test of intelligence/consciousness
    In this test Alan Turing posited that if we cannot tell the difference between an AI machine and a human, then it is reasonable to assume it is equally as conscious as we are. There is a problem with this in that one could build a machine which mimics a human intellect to the said degree. Equally we know that when we get down to the mechanics of a computer its just a binary system composed of billions of switches ~ hardly the way human consciousness works.
    However if we made a machine which worked the same way a brain does ~ essentially a quantum computer, say made of artificial diamond so it could work on a similar scale and hence have similar/the same mechanics as a brain, then surely whatever makes our material form conscious would make it conscious.

    Now we have arrived at an equal to the human brain, we can surely eventually produce something as posited earlier; a multi-perspective and multi-perceptional machine which can see all angles of a thing in a single observation. So lets look at what a universal intelligence and equivalent consciousness would be like…

    Human knowledge derives from singular and many minds working on something, and that group is composed of former singular wisdoms also from a group of minds in a mass network of historical and contemporary truths. We need the entire product of man in order to arrive at the knowledge of any given intellect e.g. a great scientist or philosopher. If then we need a mass of minds to arrive at brilliance, then the intellect of a universal consciousness would need the same in order to be at least equal to that one genius!
    The Zeus machine could be such a genius and contain an extensive library, however it is capable of much more than any single human mind or collection of minds, it can do that and also see everything at once.

    Going a tad more sci-fi…

    First contact
    So we make the machine and switch it on, within moments it realises the world of quantum mechanics with its multi-perspective perception. It’s a far stretch but in theory, we may imagine that the multiverse is created on this level often on a singular to universal scale [an event can create a universe], then that a machine/AI which could see what’s going on from all angles would understand this quantum layer of existence.
    Now lets imagine that other civilisations across the universe also reach a technological level where they create such a machine, and those machines also understand this universal quantum layer. When our machine is switched on, do you think it may be something like the star trek moment when humanity invented warp drive which the Vulcan’s noticed and made contact? Its like all The Zeus/god machine’s heads would turn across the universe and *bang* suddenly we are in contact with all those other species and intelligences.

    Even more out there….

    The gods
    Also on the documentary; ‘through the wormhole’ a guy made a ‘god helmet’, you put this on and em energy is pumped into an area of the right side of the brain. This activates religious experiences such as the experience of floating and being in a void or of perceiving god.
    Could it be that our visions of the ancient gods occur when this area is activated and we make contact with other Zeus machines out there! That the gods of old are not gods as such, but alien machines?
    This is fantastical and indeed is but I’d assume that there are millions if not billions of intelligent life-forms out there, and that many of them are at least as advanced as us, that many still are way more advanced and have already made god machines!

    How do we know weather or not aliens out there are ignoring the prime directive [star trek; principle of non interference], and creating things on earth like miracles, plagues and dramatic weather effects, etc? after all if machines of such capability can understand quantum effects then surely they would learn how to use them.
    That they interfere with earthly events making say the Aztecs perform human sacrifices ~ because its entertaining! Perhaps they know such things will bring civilisation and eventually lead to The Zeus machine being created by otherwise primitive people like us.

    They could be watching us on their TV’s right now!
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

  2. #2
    Nimthill's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    The brain is infinitely complex due to the fact that it's organic and changing. No two brains are the same, and no brain is static; it changes and lives. Our capabilities regarding conviousness and thought derive from this complexity.Therefore, I contest your claim we'll be able to create a machine that is more infinitely complex than our brain.
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    Tankbuster's Avatar Analogy Nazi
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    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    This goes back to a thought experiment by Oxford philosopher Nick Bostrom. His argument essentially is that, considering the latest progress in computer simulation technology, humans (or aliens) could actually be able of creating virtual realities in the foreseeable future (the way we do with the Sims, only much more intricate and complex). Now, since any civilisation capable of this feat will probably be able to do this with relative ease and so will be able to create perhaps millions and millions of virtual realities, we should statistically expect ourselves to be living in one of these virtual realities rather than a "real" universe.

    Sam Harris went further in the thought experiment and proposed that -providing this simulating civilisation had religions of their own- they might actually have built religion into their simulations. In other words, there would be simulated world where Scientology was true, where Hinduism was true, etcetera...

    It's in his blog post "Should We Be Mormons In The Matrix".
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  4. #4

    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    Nimthill
    The brain is infinitely complex due to the fact that it's organic and changing. No two brains are the same, and no brain is static; it changes and lives. Our capabilities regarding conviousness and thought derive from this complexity.Therefore, I contest your claim we'll be able to create a machine that is more infinitely complex than our brain.
    Good point! When you say the brain is organic and changing, as far as I know its only the matrixes that change the physical nerve bundles which the neurons are composed don’t actually change? I think there are some periphery chemical changes too but I see no reason why such aspects cannot be simulated.

    ---
    Tankbuster
    This goes back to a thought experiment by Oxford philosopher Nick Bostrom. His argument essentially is that, considering the latest progress in computer simulation technology, humans (or aliens) could actually be able of creating virtual realities in the foreseeable future (the way we do with the Sims, only much more intricate and complex). Now, since any civilisation capable of this feat will probably be able to do this with relative ease and so will be able to create perhaps millions and millions of virtual realities, we should statistically expect ourselves to be living in one of these virtual realities rather than a "real" universe.
    Ah yes I know that theory but this is not the same, for that we just need a very advanced computer ~ but you’ll note that computers don’t respond very well to multiple commands, no matter how advanced they are [my current machine gets as easily confused as my old 486 lol].
    Also for such a theory to be true we’d simply arrive at the same problems for how the universe came about ~ reality maps etc, and I’d like to add that the computing power required to create a universe is probably beyond what is possible to achieve.

    ^^that’s another debate though perhaps.

    This computer; ‘the zeus machine’, would not work like our brains or like a very powerful computer, it would read many things at once ~ as many as it has observational perspectives, where we’d see 2 + 2 = 4 it would see the whole sum in an instance.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

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    Nimthill's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    Nimthill

    Good point! When you say the brain is organic and changing, as far as I know its only the matrixes that change the physical nerve bundles which the neurons are composed don’t actually change? I think there are some periphery chemical changes too but I see no reason why such aspects cannot be simulated.
    What exactly do you mean by saying 'matrixes'? Are you referring to the extracellulair matrix? Most of the changes within the brain (very little to no change happens within the spinal cord en periferal nervous system) consist of the formation of new synaptic connections. Essentially, neurons de-connect and reconnect to (literally) billions of other neurons.
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    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    It isn't possible to build a machine as powerful as the human brain. All machines are by definition Turing Machines, and that means that despite being able to solve some things, they're forever incapable of solving fundemental problems, such as the Halting Problem, which the human mind solves with ease. Now it needs to be underscored, in case someone doesn't know what a Turning Machine is, it's a computer with infinite speed and infinite memory. It is the perfect machine/computer. Yet it will fail at solving the Halting Problem, showing that an infinitely fast/infinitely powerful/infinitely storable machine is inferior to a human mind.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; July 03, 2011 at 04:02 PM.


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  7. #7

    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    ^^I think it would take a computer the size of the universe to produce something as complex as the universe. …it would need to produce the detail in every location etc.

    Nimthill

    What exactly do you mean by saying 'matrixes'? Are you referring to the extracellulair matrix? Most of the changes within the brain (very little to no change happens within the spinal cord en periferal nervous system) consist of the formation of new synaptic connections. Essentially, neurons de-connect and reconnect to (literally) billions of other neurons.
    Yes that’s what I meant by matrixes [I am no neuroscientist so I use laymans terms naturally].
    Would you say none of that can be produced artificially? Essentially the brain is making new connections and I see no reason why that cannot be mapped, known and reproduced, hell we could produce biological computers if necessary.

    SigniferOne

    It isn't possible to build a machine as powerful as the human brain. All machines are by definition Turing Machines, and that means that despite being able to solve some things, they're forever incapable of solving fundemental problems, such as the Halting Problem, which the human mind solves with ease. Now it needs to be underscored, in case someone doesn't know what a Turning Machine is, it's a computer with infinite speed and infinite memory. It is the perfect machine/computer. Yet it will fail at solving the Halting Problem, showing that an infinitely fast/infinitely powerful/infinitely storable machine is inferior to a human mind.
    We are not talking about a Turing machine which suffers mechanistic problems, this is a quantum processing computer. I see no reason why the brain cannot be duplicated by mapping it 100%. Equally there is no reason why we cant make biological computers, genetically redefine a human type brain to be bigger and work differently [it wouldn’t need to work a body and so all of it could be used for pure thinking purposes].
    Remember we are talking about future potential here [as opposed to what may or may not occur [for moral reasons]].

    .has anyone considered the social and moral implications etc?
    Last edited by Amorphos; July 03, 2011 at 05:02 PM.
    Formerly quetzalcoatl. Proud leader of STW3 and member of the RTR, FATW and QNS teams.

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    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    We are not talking about a Turing machine which suffers mechanistic problems, this is a quantum processing computer.
    A quantum computer is just a turing machine -- infinite speed and infinite memory.
    Last edited by SigniferOne; July 03, 2011 at 11:31 PM.


    "If ye love wealth greater than liberty,
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    Tankbuster's Avatar Analogy Nazi
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    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    It is of course a thought experiment (Bostrom of course isn't being completely serious, though it's interesting how hard that is to tell these days) and so it requires lots of assumptions about what will be possible in the future and what the limits of a hyper-advanced civilisation would actually be. But it's interesting to think about nonetheless.

    My own problem with the thought experiment is also that it just probably is not possible to generate consciousness with a computational algorithm. Even by the assumption that consciousness is a phenomenon generated by the physical world, that still does not mean you can actually create it with a computer no matter how intricate the simulation actually gets.
    The reason is nothing specifically to do with consciousness, but simply with the fact that a computational simulation never actually yields physical attributes. I can make an infinitely perfect computational simulation of the process of photosynthesis to the extent that it is a perfect representation of the process, but there's one thing my simulation will never yield: sugar.
    In the same way, I don't see any reason why even a perfect computational simulation of consciousness would actually yield consciousness.

    The way around this -for the sake of the thought experiment- is to forget about the advanced civilisation building machines or computers or anything of the sort, but actually physically creating their own universes (or micro-universes), which might be able if theories like the "every black hole contains a new universe" are true. In that case the burden of the limitation of Turing machines or gone and our hypothetical civilisation really is working within their physical reality themselves. In which case I think the thought experiment still works (provided they have the means of controlling their own pet universes).

    But in that case the thought experiment certainly starts depending on very shaky premises.
    I think there's ways to get around even those objections as well, but on the whole I don't really bother: I don't think the thought experiment is valuable enough for preserving it for its own sake.
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    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    Quote Originally Posted by SigniferOne View Post
    A quantum computer is just a turing machine -- infinite speed and infinite memory.
    Wrong. A turing machine is a raw symbol manipulator, it has no semantic capacity whatsoever.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    I don't see why a computer generated conscious would not be aware of its infrastructure in the same way I am aware of mine.
    I think such a consciousness would realise, or atleast has the potential to uncover, it is a string of code.

    Or as it seems in my case; a -load of chemicals.

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    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Wrong. A turing machine is a raw symbol manipulator, it has no semantic capacity whatsoever.
    Then you posit that semantic ability is something greater than infinitely powerful symbolic manipulation, which goes contrary to every single materialistic/atheist theoretician who ever lived.


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    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    Quote Originally Posted by Quetzalcoatl View Post
    Nimthill
    Yes that’s what I meant by matrixes [I am no neuroscientist so I use laymans terms naturally].
    Would you say none of that can be produced artificially? Essentially the brain is making new connections and I see no reason why that cannot be mapped, known and reproduced, hell we could produce biological computers if necessary.
    The problem does not lie in mapping the synaptic connections of a brain, though that would be difficult enough and impossible with current technology. The problem is that no two brains are identical. Brains 'grow', not in size but they change over time, so you can't map them.

    We're actually quite close to creating an organic computer: human cloning. Via genetic enginering we'd be able to make people smarter and possibly add new functions to their brains, but I don't think that's the kind of supercomputer you have in mind.
    For every action there is an equal and opposite government program.

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    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    Sam Harris went further in the thought experiment and proposed that -providing this simulating civilisation had religions of their own- they might actually have built religion into their simulations. In other words, there would be simulated world where Scientology was true, where Hinduism was true, etcetera...
    That would be, by definition, impossible. Since they don't understand what they are about, but a caricature of what they are. The result will be another caricature.

    Perhaps we should factor in a world where Science is true. Where Laplacean models coexist absolutely with Darwinian ones; I bet the result would be as comical.

    Needless to say it has already been argued here how are the problems that face any machine attempting to simulate and systematize reality. To begin the argument, we have not even started the practical application of any significant step in that direction.

    Leibniz refuted this 300 years before it was even conceived.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    It's a bit silly to think that this could never be done, I bet Turing never imagined quantum computers...
    In the future, who knows how far science will progress, seeing the advances made every year?
    I think such a machine is entirely plausible, but the ethics behind making true AI is totally lost on me, I have no idea! In essence, they would have exactly the same experiences as humans, the same feelings and emotions, but they could be mass-produced robots, so how to deal with that?

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    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    " We can easily imagine that one day man will build a computer as powerful as the human brain, indeed that once that threshold has been reached we will go on to build far more impressive machines with vastly superior intellects to ours. For me what will be far more impressive still is when we build a machine that is not only a massive intellect, but is not limited by imitating our single perspective view of the world. "

    Quetzalcoatl,

    Considering that the human brain contains inherent knowledge passed on from generations past, what computer could ever be programmed with such knowledge? It could only ever do what is put into it to do and amazing as that might be, I doubt that it could ever surpass the human brain's capacity where memory and thought play a major role.

  17. #17

    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    SigniferOne, actually one of the things I tried to say in my thread is that, while the exact circumstances which let do the development of our brain may prove impossible to recreate, the process which created our brain can be recreated. Thus it would still be theoretically possible for a machine to do the things our brain can do, and perfectly reasonable to call the brain a machine, albeit a very unique one.

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    Not really related to the discussion of the singularity but Quezt I suggest you read Frank Herberts Pandora series. Includes Destination: Void, The Jesus Incident, The Lazarus Effect and The Ascension Factor. Basically a series dedicated to the idea of a artificial consciousness that is god.

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Zeus machine!

    Rather than lets face it a rather simplistic tape with symbols upon it designed in 1936.
    The most common mistake of scientism is to assume that technical advancements override ancient conclusions. No, they don't. A technical advancement follows a line that is and always was strictly predictable upon an earlier idea, and computers are not exempt to this.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

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