Just wondering what other people think about nationalism. Personally, i find it to be the basic foundation of any world power. And america, unfortunately, has lost what sense of national identity it had.
Nationalism
Just wondering what other people think about nationalism. Personally, i find it to be the basic foundation of any world power. And america, unfortunately, has lost what sense of national identity it had.
Vicarius Provinciae
America is a melting pot of cultures. What national identity the USA did have comes from all sorts of people coming into the country. Nationalism is loving ones country. I love my country but right now we are stuck in a bad war and it is wearing down on peoples nerves. Besides nationalism and its occurences have often caused lots of problems. Ever heard of the Know-Nothings?
I Disagree.Originally Posted by brokenfingers
True nationalism, is believing that ones nation state is right it all that it does.
And it does not matter if deeds done by it were considered good or bad, because nationalism blinds people.
And for what purpose?
What is so important about a nation state?
To 'love' your country, is something else, it is to fight for it so it represents you, the people.
And if it stops representing you, the people, and starts to rule you instead.
That does not mean you should stop 'loving your country'.
It simply means you should fight so that your nation state represents you the people once more.
Nationalism is not that.
Nationalism is a method of control, and has nothing to do with 'loving your country'.
Vicarius Provinciae
Lets Say you (not literally you but 'you' as an example) have a son.
And one night that son turned up covered with blood, and a body outside.
His Story was self defence, as you love your son, lets say you tie weights to the body, and drop it in a swamp 20 miles away.
2 weeks later, he is again covered with blood. and there is another body outside.
This time, to admit his guilt would also admit to your own complicity. Therefore you hide this body as well.
2 weeks later it happens again.
it is now clear he has killed and has been killing wrongly and unjustly and in an unprovoked manner.
Does to 'love' your son, at this point, mean to continue hiding and allowing the continuation of his misdeeds,
Or does to 'love' your son mean to stop him?
An abstract example....
In answer to your point, Nationalism blinds people to truth.
But it is not love, merely self-deceit.
Dux Limitis
I disagree with your comments, nationalism is loving one's country, fighting to protect it, and having its best interests at heart - and if the leadership make a bad decision, leading your nation to war against another (or causing another nation to make war upon yours), you will follow your country into war, and do all you can to protect it regardless of who is right or wrong.
Not a method of control, how do you come up with that conclusion im not sure, because nationalism is not governmental, its an ideal - its been exploited and implemented by governments in the past of course, but it is no method of control :/
Lee: America have never had its own scientists, engineers, so on so forth, because the country is built on immigration, every one of its early workers was from another country...America took a lot of the top european scientists, engineers etc after ww2 (theres some kind of name for what happened here but i cant remember it)..europe fell behind as a result.
Less people are immigrating to america for these reasons now, so the technology etc is balancing out again.
There was a show on a while back here in the UK where an upper class guy went over to america to find out why 'America is ****ed' (as the name of the show was called), talking about a lack of nationalism and pride...he went all over the place and only in places like texas and more remote places maintained their sense of pride in their country.
He did one in the UK before this too, and its even more obvious here that the country is falling apart in this way at least..in america you guys all have the flags waving outside your house, we would get told to take ours inside in case it caused offense to any minority if we held out the union flag, or the St. Georges cross (in england)..
The immigrants dont consider themselves british (not even one that have been born and raised here), they consider themselves indian, pakistani, etc etc...they have no sense of loyalty to their country.
Last edited by Carach; March 18, 2006 at 06:39 PM.
Look, there are people near where I live who fly the union flag on a pole outside their house, and I can assure you that they haven't been made to take it down.
I can assure you that I know many immigrants who do feel that they are British. I don't have a clue where these myths about immigrants come from.
"War! What is it good for? Absolutely NOTHING!"- War, Edwin Starr
Civitate
During the world cup every one had flags on their cars and outside their houses, not so many now have them out, but quite a few.
Where?I can assure you that I know many immigrants who do feel that they are British. I don't have a clue where these myths about immigrants come from.
Come to W. Yorkshire!
Visit Bradford/Halifax and you will see that not many immigrants have integrated at all. Some even have Pakistani Flags on their registration plate, which is illegal....
Immigrants have desecrated cemetries and monuments to fallen soldiers and they make up the majority of criminal offenders. I know that this is not true for all immigrants everywhere, but in my corner of England it is....
Dux Limitis
Well better believe it, because it happens. A football ground stopped fans from flying the england flag because it was deemed offensive to the black players. Thats just one example.
Like i said, numerous documentaries on tvI can assure you that I know many immigrants who do feel that they are British. I don't have a clue where these myths about immigrants come from.
not just your corner of england, majority of england is like that...its true in america too after reading some statistics posted on these boards a while back, and well, you only have to watch whats going on in france to see the majority causing trouble there are also immigrants.Immigrants have desecrated cemetries and monuments to fallen soldiers and they make up the majority of criminal offenders. I know that this is not true for all immigrants everywhere, but in my corner of England it is....
Last edited by Carach; March 19, 2006 at 06:32 AM.
Certified Ignoramus
On the contrary I believe real love also means being willing to criticise the loved one when needed (eg. a child). I cannot see why this doesn't apply to the love of one's nation.
Opposing torture has become something for "liberal Euros" and other homos. -Erik
Under the Patronage of The Honourable, Sagacious eXc|Imperator
Problem is, most don't.
Certified Ignoramus
Sadly true, but most of these flag-waving jingoists aren't genuine patriots (imo).
Opposing torture has become something for "liberal Euros" and other homos. -Erik
Under the Patronage of The Honourable, Sagacious eXc|Imperator
Domesticus
Well said, Bigfootedfred.
Sorry, corrected.
Last edited by leeho730; March 17, 2006 at 12:44 AM.
Certified Ignoramus
This isn't Ummo..... uh, oh wait
(What can i say, he seems to be having an effect on me!)
Last edited by Harlanite; March 17, 2006 at 02:46 AM.
Opposing torture has become something for "liberal Euros" and other homos. -Erik
Under the Patronage of The Honourable, Sagacious eXc|Imperator
Citizen
I believe you can love your country without having it blind you.
As a British citizen I am proud of my heritage, my country, and the people in it for the most part. But I do not let this blind me of the fact that as a nation in the international community we have become the lap-dogs of the US Government in the past 50 years, and weak in the face of the rest of Europe.
So what if I'm proud of my language? The culture of the UK? Does this really blind my political sense? No. Nationalism is yet another word muddied by the acts of tyranical dictatorships of the 20th century.
morecuriousthanbold.com
Dux Limitis
Nationalism is a tool of manipulation, nothing more.
Swear filters are for sites run by immature children.
It Gets Worse.
Nationalism is a very broad subject, and has many different forms and aspects. Here is what dictionary.com gives you for nationalism:
Most people draw the line between Civic Nationalism and Ethnic Nationalism. Civic Nationalism is basically state nationalism, which has little to do with Nations but rather with States and therefore nothing to do with ethnicity. Ethnic Nationalism again emphasises the importance of Ethnic groups as the basic political units. Nationalism has been demonized by associating it with Nazi Germany, but Nationalism had about as much to with the Third Reich as Socialism. Nationalism (at least most of the time) emphasizes the right to national sovereignty of all ethnic groups or peoples. The Third Reich was Imperialist, and therefore basically the anti-thesis of Nationalism.naˇtionˇalˇism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nsh-n-lzm, nshn-)
n.
Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.
Personally I am more of an (Democratic) Ethnic Nationalist, although Civic Nationalism has some concepts, which I also find appealing. Nationalism doesn't blind people to the "Truth" anymore than any other ideology does and to say so is idiocy. Nationalism does not equal any blind faith in anything, but rather conscious attempts to keep the nation intact. Nowadays most European Nationalists see the eroding of Traditional European identities as a great threat, and can be called preservationists. Most people like to associate Nationalism with some sort of sense of superiority, but to me Nationalism is simply a sense of belonging, identity and love for my nation, as well as solidarity towards other nations and their right to a national homeland. Darth Wong has called me many things here, such as white segregationist and racist, but that is because he has failed to understand (or perhaps doesn't want to) the basics of Nationalist ideology.
The common culture of a tribe is a sign of its inner cohesion. But tribes are vanishing from the modern world, as are all forms of traditional society. Customs, practices, festivals, rituals and beliefs have acquired a flut and half-hearted quality which reflects our nomadic and rootless existence, predicated as we are on the global air-waves.
ROGER SCRUTON, Modern Culture
Honnęte Homme.
That's a nice distinction. And I would then belong to the first category... Which leads to the paradox, that my nationalism leads me to be a staunch internationalist :wink:
ron :wub:in swanson
there is nationalism and and then there is blind nationalism.
It is not wrong to have pride about where you live, it is wrong when you cannot see the faults of where you live. A true nationalist should see those faults and try to correct them.
house of Rububula, under the patronage of Nihil, patron of Hotspur, David Deas, Freddie, Askthepizzaguy and Ketchfoop
Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company
-Mark Twain
in summary,
patriotism = good
nationalism = bad?
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