Results 1 to 20 of 29

Thread: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth



    This extends beyond Buddhism to politics and many other things.

    A few favorite quotes and thoughts for people who don't want to sit through it for an hour:

    Opening address in a medical college to new students "50% of what we're going to teach you is wrong, our trouble is we're just not sure which 50%"

    The Buddha to his chief disciple after a teaching talk, "Do you believe what I just said?" The disciple replied, "no" can you imagine that happening in the Catholic church? The disciple was praised for maintaining his critical factor.

    "Understanding the truth in your own heart leads me onto another part of what real religion is and the worst part of religion, and if Buddhism is going to be a force for good in this world the type of buddhism that we're looking at the original form because that understanding the truth in your own heart leads to an autonomy in religion. Which means that you have to make your own choices, you have to decide for yourself how you are going to behave and what is good and what is bad. To often it it is the religions that tell you what is good and what is bad"

    If anyone watches it let me know what you think.

  2. #2
    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Canada, Ontario
    Posts
    3,913

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    "Understanding the truth in your own heart leads me onto another part of what real religion is and the worst part of religion, and if Buddhism is going to be a force for good in this world the type of buddhism that we're looking at the original form because that understanding the truth in your own heart leads to an autonomy in religion. Which means that you have to make your own choices, you have to decide for yourself how you are going to behave and what is good and what is bad. To often it it is the religions that tell you what is good and what is bad"
    This quote is utter garbage. It both mentions good and implies that each individual conception of good is equally valid. That is an utter contradiction. I guess trippy nonsensical "philosophy" can be entertaining though.
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
    ― Denis Diderot
    ~
    As for politics, I'm an Anarchist. I hate governments and rules and fetters. Can't stand caged animals. People must be free.
    ― Charlie Chaplin

  3. #3
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Squiggle View Post
    This quote is utter garbage. It both mentions good and implies that each individual conception of good is equally valid. That is an utter contradiction. I guess trippy nonsensical "philosophy" can be entertaining though.
    No it is merely reflecting that Buddhism is a search for your own truth, plenty of people to guide you and books to help but you mustn't diminish your critical factor while studying them or listening to teachers.

    It makes a lot more sense in the context of the entire talk, rejecting absolute certainty at the expense of your critical factor and your own experience.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    Howdo!

    @Squiggle,

    Actually the Noble 8 fold path acknowledges certain absolutes which ARE the 8 folds btw.

    The Pali Nikayas also state that Consciousness exists outside of the 5 skhandas as well and NOT as a result of them.

    Much debate has and is occurring regarding what Nibbana/Nirvana actually is.
    The Buddha's recorded sayings, in the Pali texts anyway, always have the Buddha approaching Truth using the Neti, Neti (Not this, Not this) or the Via Negativa approach to eliminate that which is not true or actual, as it were.

    The Buddha, from the Pali perspective, wasn't into moral relativism at all.
    In Buddhism, one does not "search for one's own truth" as the Dharma states:
    1. All is Dukkha...a term frequently mistranslated as "Suffering" Actually, it is a composite word meaning unsatisfactory, suffering, lacking
    2. All is Impermanent
    3. There is no atma (Anatta or Anatma)...This is the most controversial of the Buddhist tenets, as scholars and most recently from my friends testimony that the Thai Theravada are/were arguing that the REAL self is Nirvana/Nibbana!
    One has to nail down what "atma" meant to the Buddha, which is impossible to know in truth
    4. Follow the noble 8 fold path with Nibbana/Nirvana in view

    So, It's a little more complex than one saying "It's all good."
    hellas1.5

  5. #5
    Squiggle's Avatar Primicerius
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Canada, Ontario
    Posts
    3,913

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    Alright, I'm about a half hour in and I think I get the gist: I agree with it. You shouldnt suspend critical faculties for religion, you shouldnt simply accept authority because authority says so. I agree that its actually a common cultural trait within Christianity, though it's hardly a dogmatic trait. Contrarily, the bible is replete with evidence, arguments, imploring you to use your mind so that you may know the truth they have. Not to blindly accept, but to learnedly understand.
    Man will never be free until the last King is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.
    ― Denis Diderot
    ~
    As for politics, I'm an Anarchist. I hate governments and rules and fetters. Can't stand caged animals. People must be free.
    ― Charlie Chaplin

  6. #6
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    Again Hellas the point wasn't a debate on what could be considered truth but how you glean knowledge. The practice not the idea.

    But by the by on Buddhist morality and the quest for normalcy:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    7. The Five Precepts







    The purpose of Buddhist moral precepts

    There are three fundamental modes of training in Buddhist practice: morality, mental culture, and wisdom. The English word morality is used to translate the Pali term sila, although the Buddhist term contains its own particular connotations. The word sila denotes a state of normalcy, a condition which is basically unqualified and unadulterated. When one practices sila, one returns to one's own basic goodness, the original state of normalcy, unperturbed and unmodified. Killing a human being, for instance, is not basically human nature; if it were, human beings would have ceased to exist a long time ago. A person commits an act of killing because he or she is blinded by greed, rage or hatred. Such negative qualities as anger, hatred, greed, ill will, and jealousy are factors that alter people's nature and make them into something other than their true self. To practice sila is thus to train in preserving one's true nature, not allowing it to be modified or overpowered by negative forces.

    This definition points to the objective of Buddhist morality rather than to the practice itself, but it does give us an idea of the underlying philosophy behind the training, as well as how the Buddhist moral precepts should be followed. These precepts are a means to an end, they are observed for a specific objective.

    On the personal level, the observance of precepts serves as the preliminary groundwork for the cultivation of higher virtues or mental development. Sila is the most important step on the spiritual path. Without morality, right concentration cannot be attained, and without right concentration, wisdom cannot be fully perfected. Thus, morality not only enhances people's ethical values and fulfills their noble status as human beings, but it is crucial to their efforts toward the highest religious goal of Nibbana.

    On the social level, sila contributes to harmonious and peaceful coexistence among community members and consequently helps to promote social growth and development. In a society where morality prevails and members are conscious of their roles, there will be general security, mutual trust, and close cooperation, these in turn leading to greater progress and prosperity. Without morality there will be corruption and disturbance, and all members of society are adversely affected. Most of the problems that society experiences today are connected, directly or indirectly, with a lack of good morality.

    Questions of morality always concern the issues of right and wrong, good and evil. For a moral life to be meaningful these issues must not remain mere theoretical principles, but translated into practice. Good must be performed, evil must be given up. It is not enough to know what is good or evil, we also need to take proper action with respect to them. We need concrete guidelines to follow, and these are provided by the Buddhist moral precepts. Even the oft-quoted Buddhist ideals of abstention from evil, implementation of what is good, and perfect mental purification can be initially actualized through a consistent practice of moral precepts. The precepts help us to live those ideals; they teach us to do the right things and to avoid the wrong.

    Buddhist moral precepts provide a wholesome foundation for personal and social growth. They are practical principles for a good life and the cultivation of virtues. If we understand the objectives of sila and realize its benefits, we will see moral precepts as an integral part of life rather than as a burden that we are compelled to shoulder. Buddhist moral precepts are not commandments imposed by force; they are a course of training willingly undertaken in order to achieve a desired objective. We do not practice to please a supreme being, but for our own good and the good of society. As individuals, we need to train in morality to lead a good and noble life. On the social level, we need to help maintain peace and harmony in society and facilitate the progress of the common good. The practice of moral precepts is essential in this regard.



    Distinguishing good and evil

    The problems of good and evil, right and wrong, have been dealt with in the discussion on kamma. Here it may suffice to give a brief summary on the subject.

    To determine whether an action is good or evil, right or wrong, Buddhist ethics takes into account three components involved in a kammic action. The first is the intention that motivates the action, the second is the effect the doer experiences consequent to the action, and the third is the effect that others experience as a result of that action. If the intention is good, rooted in positive mental qualities such as love, compassion, and wisdom, if the result to the doer is wholesome (for instance, it helps him or her to become more compassionate and unselfish), and if those to whom the action is directed also experience a positive result thereof, then that action is good, wholesome, or skillful (kusala). If, on the other hand, the action is rooted in negative mental qualities such as hatred and selfishness, if the outcome experienced by the doer is negative and unpleasant, and if the recipients of the action also experience undesirable effects from the action or become more hateful and selfish, then that action is unwholesome or unskillful (akusala).

    It is quite probable that on the empirical level an action may appear to be a mixture of good and bad elements, in spite of the intention and the way it is performed. Thus, an action committed with the best of intentions may not bring the desired result for either the doer or the recipient. Sometimes an action based on negative intentions may produce seemingly positive results (as stealing can produce wealth). Due to lack of knowledge and understanding, people may confuse one set of actions with an unrelated set of results and make wrong conclusions, or simply misjudge them on account of social values and conventions. This can lead to misconceptions about the law of kamma and loss of moral consciousness. This is why precepts are necessary in the practice of moral discipline: they provide definite guidelines and help to avoid some of the confusion that empirical observation and social conventions may entail.

    Buddhist moral precepts are based on the Dhamma, and they reflect such eternal values as compassion, respect, self-restraint, honesty, and wisdom. These are values that are cherished by all civilizations, and their significance is universally recognized. Moral precepts that are based on such values or directed toward their realization will always be relevant to human society, no matter to what extent it has developed. Moreover, their validity can be empirically tested on the basis of one's own sensitivity and conscience, which are beyond factors of time and place. Killing, for instance, is objectionable when considered from the perspective of oneself being the victim of the action (although when other lives are subjected to the same act, its undesirability may not be felt as strongly). The same is true with regard to stealing, lying, and sexual misconduct. Because Buddhist moral precepts are grounded on these factors, their practicality remains intact even today, and their usefulness is beyond question.



    Precepts for lay Buddhists

    Observance of the five precepts constitutes the minimum moral obligation of a practicing lay Buddhist. These five precepts enjoin against killing living beings, taking what is not given (or stealing), sexual misconduct, false speech, and use of intoxicating drink or drugs.

    The practice of Buddhist moral precepts deeply affects one's personal and social life. The fact that they represent a course of training which one willingly undertakes rather than a set of commandments willfully imposed by a God or supreme being is likely to have a positive bearing upon one's conscience and awareness. On the personal level, the precepts help one to lead a moral life and to advance further on the spiritual path. Moreover, popular Buddhism believes that the practice of morality contributes to the accumulation of merits that both support one in the present life and ensure happiness and prosperity in the next. On the social level, observing the five precepts helps to promote peaceful coexistence, mutual trust, a cooperative spirit, and general peace and harmony in society. It also helps to maintain an atmosphere which is conducive to social progress and development, as we can see from the practical implications of each precept.

    The first precept admonishes against the destruction of life. This is based on the principle of goodwill and respect for the right to life of all living beings. By observing this precept one learns to cultivate loving kindness and compassion. One sees others' suffering as one's own and endeavors to do what one can to help alleviate their problems. Personally, one cultivates love and compassion; socially, one develops an altruistic spirit for the welfare of others.

    The second precept, not to take things which are not given, signifies respect for others' rights to possess wealth and property. Observing the second precept, one refrains from earning one's livelihood through wrongful means, such as by stealing or cheating. This precept also implies the cultivation of generosity, which on a personal level helps to free one from attachment and selfishness, and on a social level contributes to friendly cooperation in the community.

    The third precept, not to indulge in sexual misconduct, includes rape, adultery, sexual promiscuity, paraphilia, and all forms of sexual aberration. This precept teaches one to respect one's own spouse as well as those of others, and encourages the practice of self-restraint, which is of utmost importance in spiritual training. It is also interpreted by some scholars to mean the abstention from misuse of senses and includes, by extension, non-transgression on things that are dear to others, or abstention from intentionally hurting other's feelings. For example, a young boy may practice this particular precept by refraining from intentionally damaging his sister's dolls. If he does, he may be said to have committed a breach of morality. This precept is intended to instill in us a degree of self-restraint and a sense of social propriety, with particular emphasis on sexuality and sexual behavior.

    The fourth precept, not to tell lies or resort to falsehood, is an important factor in social life and dealings. It concerns respect for truth. A respect for truth is a strong deterrent to inclinations or temptation to commit wrongful actions, while disregard for the same will only serve to encourage evil deeds. The Buddha has said: "There are few evil deeds that a liar is incapable of committing." The practice of the fourth precept, therefore, helps to preserve one's credibility, trustworthiness, and honor.

    The last of the five Buddhist moral precepts enjoins against the use of intoxicants. On the personal level, abstention from intoxicants helps to maintain sobriety and a sense of responsibility. Socially, it helps to prevent accidents, such as car accidents, that can easily take place under the influence of intoxicating drink or drugs. Many crimes in society are committed under the influence of these harmful substances. The negative effects they have on spiritual practice are too obvious to require any explanation.



    The five precepts

    Theravada Buddhism preserves the Buddha's teachings and conducts religious ceremonies mainly in the original Pali language. The five precepts are also recited in Pali, and their meanings are generally known to most Buddhists. In the following the original Pali text is given in italics, and the corresponding English translation is given side by side:

    1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami: I observe the precept of abstaining from the destruction of life.

    2. Adinnadana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami: I observe the precept of abstaining from taking that which is not given.

    3. Kamesu micchacara veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami: I observe the precept of abstaining from sexual misconduct.

    4. Musavada veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami: I observe the precept of abstaining from falsehood.

    5. Suramerayamajjapamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami: I observe the precept of abstaining from intoxicants that cloud the mind and cause carelessness.

    The refrain "I observe the precept of abstaining from ..." which begins every precept clearly shows that these are not commandments. They are, indeed, moral codes of conduct that lay Buddhists willingly undertake out of clear understanding and conviction that they are good for both themselves and for society.



    Practical application of the five precepts

    Training is based on the axiomatic assumption that human beings have the potential for development. In order that this development may be realized, a concrete standard is needed by which people may train themselves. The five precepts are meant to fulfill this need.

    For example, compassion is a spiritual quality that we all possess to some degree. However, without a conscious and persistent effort to develop it, this important quality may remain rudimentary and weak. By consciously practicing the first precept, we bring this compassion to a higher level of development and come a step closer to the realization of the Dhamma. In the process, our conduct becomes more refined and our mind becomes more sensitive to the problems and suffering of others. By practicing the second precept we not only purify our livelihood but train in generosity and non-attachment. The third precept has a direct connection with the training in sense restraint, which is an essential feature in higher spiritual development. In fact, enlightenment is not possible without mastery over the senses. The fourth precept deals with training in truthfulness and virtuous speech. The objective of this precept is not only the cultivation of respect for truth, but a way of life that is sincere and free from falsehood in every respect. Even the fifth precept, which enjoins against the use of intoxicants, is not merely negative, for the resultant effects that take place in the mind in terms of mental strength and moral integrity are very positive. The observance of this precept is also a natural precursor to the cultivation of mindfulness and wisdom, which are the essence of insight meditation. Each and every precept increases our awareness of how we may skillfully conduct ourselves in body and speech and helps us to see more clearly whether we are improving in this process of self-discipline.

    We may summarize the five precepts in relation to the spiritual qualities that they are likely to produce and promote as follows. The first precept helps to promote goodwill, compassion, and kindness. The second can be instrumental in developing generosity, service, altruism, non-attachment, contentment, honesty, and right livelihood. The third precept helps to cultivate self-restraint, mastery over the emotions and senses, renunciation, and control of sensual desire. The fourth precept leads to the development of honesty, reliability, and moral integrity. The fifth precept helps to promote mindfulness, clarity of mind, and wisdom.

    Self-reliance and responsibility are important features of the practice of Buddhist morality. Because these precepts are meant to be a course of training, it can hardly be expected that each and every practitioner will be able to follow them without committing the slightest error, any more than it can be expected of a music student not to make a single mistake in the course of his lessons. For people with certain temperaments or occupations, some precepts may appear more difficult to follow than the rest, but that should not be an obstacle to making an attempt to keep the precepts. If one is discouraged from practicing, one need simply consider that these precepts are a course of training; and training, by definition, implies imperfection and a gradual process of development.

    However, for those who are new to Buddhism, it may be a good idea to begin with greater emphasis on those precepts that are easier to follow, bearing the others in mind for later development. For instance, the second and the third precepts obviously need to be practiced by virtue of necessity, for they are supported by laws and are in perfect harmony with customs and conventions in all civilized societies. There is, therefore, hardly an excuse for not practicing them. Having dealt with these two precepts in this way, the remaining three present much lighter and less daunting a task. In fact, if we understand the contents and meaning of the five precepts correctly, we may come to feel that it is more natural to observe them than not to.



    Moral precepts and livelihood

    It is not true to say that fishermen, farmers, or hunters cannot observe the first precept. Like people in other trades and occupations, they may not be able to observe all the precepts all the time or in all circumstances, given their family obligations and livelihood, but they can certainly practice them on special occasions, like holy days, or when they are not actually engaged in their professions. In fact, there may be more opportunities to practice than at first seems possible. We observe the precepts in accordance with our abilities, training by degrees until we are able to make the precepts part and parcel of our lives.

    In the time of the Buddha there were people engaged in occupations that involved killing, such as hunters or fishermen. Farmers, too, were not free from killing, although the intention involved might not be as direct. For all of these people the precepts were there to be practiced, and some were better able to do so than others. Each person has the opportunity to practice to the best of his or her abilities until they become more mature and are spiritually ready to give up occupations or trades that involve unwholesome kamma.

    One difficulty for some people is the use of alcoholic drinks: some feel discouraged from keeping the fifth precept because some of their friends drink or because they have business dealings with people who drink. Peer pressure and business objectives may be an obstacle to the observance of this precept, but this is by no means insurmountable. Most people are reasonable and do understand religious conscience. Sometimes, citing physicians' opinions may add weight to an excuse not to drink, but it is always best to be honest. In any case, a serious Dhamma practitioner should not allow trivial things like this to prevent him or her from trying to keep the precepts. There is always an opportunity to exert oneself if one is earnest in the practice.



    Moral precepts and passivity

    If one carefully studies the foregoing discussion on the five precepts, one will see that, although the Pali texts are worded in the negative "... abstaining from ...", there is the positive commitment "I undertake to observe the precept ..." in all of them. Negative expressions do not necessarily represent negative or passive attitudes of mind. Of course, misunderstandings may result from misinterpretations of the Buddhist moral precepts (as they arise in regard to other Pali technical terms like Nibbana, dukkha, santutthi, and anatta).

    From the practical perspective Buddhist moral precepts do contain both positive and negative aspects. However, from the psychological point of view it is important for practitioners to first recognize that which is bad or wrong and which should be abstained from. Abstention from wrong or evil deeds is the most significant step toward real development in spirituality. Strangely enough, it often appears that people are so preoccupied with doing good, they forget the most important duty of refraining from evil. That is why even though one scientific accomplishment after another is being achieved, crime rates are soaring unchecked, and thinking people begin to question the benefits of those accomplishments. In religious circles, devotees passionately try to accumulate more and more merits without ever pausing to reflect whether there are things that should be cleansed from their minds. As long as this negative aspect is not attended to on a practical level, spiritual progress will not come about. On the other hand, consider a society in which people were determined not to do evil and who abstained from that which is bad and wrong; the result of such a 'negative' practice would indeed be most welcome. Even Nibbana is often negatively described as "the abandoning and destruction of desire and craving," and "the extinction of desire, the extinction of hatred, and the extinction of delusion," although it is positively the highest good.

    Once wrong and evil deeds have been abandoned, it becomes more natural to do good. Since life means movement and action, any human expression which rejects evil is bound to be good and positive. If false speech is given up, whatever is spoken will naturally be truthful. Giving up of falsehood, which is a negative act, therefore constitutes in itself not only a negation, but a positive attitude and commitment. As the Buddha himself has admonished his followers:

    "Abandoning false speech, one speaks the truth, becomes dependable, trustworthy, and reliable, and does not mislead the world. Abandoning malicious speech, one does not repeat there what has been heard here, nor does one repeat here what has been heard there, in order to sow the seeds of discord. One reconciles and unites those disunited and promotes closer bonds among friends. Unity is one's delight and joy, unity is one's love, it is the motive behind one's verbal expression. Abandoning harsh speech, one employs a speech which is blameless, pleasant, acceptable, heart-touching, civilized, and agreeable. Abandoning frivolous speech, one uses speech which is appropriate to the occasion, correct, purposeful, and in accordance with the Dhamma-Vinaya. One utters words that are worthy, opportune, reasonable, meaningful, and straightforward."

    One important reason why the Buddhist moral precepts are phrased in negative terms is because the negative mode of expression tends to convey clearer and more specific injunctions which can be followed with ease. From a practical point of view, "Do not kill" carries stronger impact and a clearer definition than "Be kind to animals" and can be more conveniently practiced. From experience, however, we will see that anyone who consciously and constantly observes the first precept will naturally develop kindness toward people and animals. The second precept, which says, "Do not take what is not given," covers all forms of wrong livelihood, whether by deception, fraud, bribery or theft. By earnestly observing this precept, one will naturally take a positive step in earning one's livelihood in a righteous way. Through constant awareness and direct control of greed and avarice, which motivate wrong livelihood, one learns to develop generosity, altruism, and selfless service. These and other positive virtues result from the so-called negative actions of observing the moral precepts, clearly demonstrating how the precepts laid down by the Buddha can bear positive results, despite their wording and expression.



    Moral dilemmas

    The first of the five Buddhist moral precepts is based on the altruistic concept of universal love and compassion. It is not only a way of life and an exercise in personal morality, but also a part of the much larger scheme in spiritual discipline of which purity of body, speech, and mind are indispensable ingredients. As such it makes no exception in its practice, given the lofty ideal to which it is designed to lead. However, in real life situations, we may need a more practical attitude of mind to approach the problem in a more realistic manner.

    First of all, we must recognize the fact that destruction of life is a negative act and the volition involved is an unwholesome one. By being honest with ourselves and by impartially contemplating the results that such acts bring, we can realize the wisdom of the first precept and consequently try to abstain from killing in any form. Perfection in the practice comes with spiritual maturity, and until perfection is attained, one needs to be aware of possible imperfections in the practice and try to improve oneself accordingly.

    Because perfection in morality requires considerable effort and training, few can achieve it in the beginning. One need not, therefore, feel discouraged, but should learn how progress in the practice can be made through a systematized and graduated process of training. For instance, one may begin by resolving to abandon any killing that is not absolutely necessary. There are people who find pleasure in destroying other creatures, such as those who fish or hunt for sport. This type of killing is quite unnecessary and only demonstrates callousness. Others are engaged in sports which involve pain and suffering to animals and may even cost their lives, such as bull fights, cock fights, and fish fights -- all senseless practices designed to satisfy sadistic impulses. One who wishes to train in the Dhamma should avoid having anything to do with this kind of entertainment. One may also resolve to show kindness to other people and animals in an objective and concrete way whenever it is possible to do so. While circumstances may prevent absolute abstention from killing, this may help to refine the mind and develop more sensitivity to the suffering of other beings. Trying to look for an alternative livelihood that does not involve destruction of life is a further step to be considered.

    Keeping one's home free of pests or bugs by not creating conditions for their infestation helps reduce the necessity for exterminating them. Ecologically, this is a very commendable practice, since the adverse effects of chemical insecticides on the environment are well known. Prevention is, indeed, better than cure even concerning bugs and beetles. Cleanliness of habitat makes killing in such cases unnecessary. Even in the field of agriculture, insecticide-free farming is becoming increasingly popular and commercially competitive. If people are so inclined and compassion prevails, killing can be greatly avoided even in the real life situations of an ordinary householder with full family obligations and concerns.

    In the unlikely event that killing is absolutely inevitable, it may be advisable to note the obvious distinction between killing out of cruelty and killing out of necessity. A person who goes out fishing for pleasure is cruel. While he may love children or make big donations for charitable institutions, as far as spirituality is concerned his mind is not refined enough to be sensitive to the pain and suffering of the poor creatures living in the river. A man who hunts for a living does so because it is necessary to maintain himself and his family. It would seem quite understandable that in the latter case the unwholesome effects would likely be much lighter than the former. The same thing is true in the case of killing for self defense. Killing dangerous animals, vermin, and insects accrues less kammically unwholesome consequences than killing a human being or an animal that serves man (such as a horse, a dog, or an elephant).

  7. #7
    sephodwyrm's Avatar Praefectus
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Taiwan
    Posts
    6,757

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    Argument for the sake thinking that one is right is anti-Buddhism.
    Older guy on TWC.
    Done with National Service. NOT patriotic. MORE realist. Just gimme cash.
    Dishing out cheap shots since 2006.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    @Denny Crane,

    Quote:
    "Again Hellas the point wasn't a debate on what could be considered truth but how you glean knowledge. The practice not the idea."

    I COMPLETELY understand what you mean.

    What I'm saying is "If you don't understand what the Buddha originally taught, you can't say how you glean knowledge according to the Buddha!"

    That's it.

    The Pali Nikayas btw were compiled 400 after the Buddha died and some scholars surmise that a Karosthi script of Nikayas better reflected the Buddha's original thoughts on things.

    Nevertheless, the various modern Buddhist schools have different modes for the "gleaning of knowledge." Some are use mantras, some use Anapanasati, some use Shunya, some use "just looking" or "sitting" (Zen), some use tantric methods utilizing visualizations of Tara, Vajrasattva, etc.

    There ya' go man....happy?
    hellas1.5

  9. #9
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    Which is why I do, I just don't discuss them with you because I find it impossible to converse with you. My most recent research is into the earliest texts and interpretations of them, the Gandharan scrolls.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    An interesting old thai chap here (very clichéd and boring background narrator though).... it gets more interesting towards the end.



    ... some use "just looking" or "sitting" (Zen).
    If it weren't for the quotes, one might think they just look and sit?

    The Pali Nikayas also state that Consciousness exists outside of the 5 skhandas as well and NOT as a result of them.
    No knowledge of thee Pali Niks, but isn't that Consciousness-thing the fifth of the five skandha? And ain't them skandha meant to be without-self / non-self (as meaning without real being or anykind of core or objectivity?) And if that were not denied, aren't we then all imagination or maya?? Hoh, hoh... how nice is christianity - sound and simple - yeah!
    Last edited by hardrive; July 01, 2011 at 12:49 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    @Denny Crane,

    "Which is why I do, I just don't discuss them with you because I find it impossible to converse with you. My most recent research is into the earliest texts and interpretations of them, the Gandharan scrolls. "

    No man. I don't come to the EM & M sub-forum to razzle people for no reason.
    I read like you and I appreciate what the Buddha probably said a long time ago.....

    I'm not a Buddhist scholar but have read much regarding this issue.

    When you look at the various Buddhist councils, the 18 or 24 schools time period along with the Oral traditon finally being written down in Pali in the 1st century A.D. (I believe..I'm tired right now), modern Buddhism is bizarre.

    The Gandharan/Karosthi texts (IF any Karosthi texts exist directly even) are probably closer to what the Buddha actually said, as opposed to hagiography as such found in the Jakata tales of the Pali Tripitaka.

    My research shows that the Buddha knew about Prana, Yog, probably more than likely Chakras and Nadis since they are integral to Yog (particularly Kundalini Yog) and Upanishadic lines of philosophy/religion. I'm not sure about Vedic lines of expression though.
    The Pali texts breakdown of meditation on the skandas and such when compared to Upanishadic thought are virtually identical and thus provide a BIG key.

    THAT is what I'm expressing.
    hellas1.5

  12. #12

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    @Hardrive,

    Quote:
    "No knowledge of thee Pali Niks, but isn't that Consciousness-thing the fifth of the five skandha? And ain't them skandha meant to be without-self / non-self (as meaning without real being or anykind of core or objectivity?) And if that were not denied, aren't we then all imagination or maya?? Hoh, hoh... how nice is christianity - sound and simple - yeah! "

    No sir. I'm a Christina by the way Ho Ho ......whatever the hell you mean....

    In a quite older thread, I mentioned that according to the Pali Tripitaka, Consciousness existed BEFORE creation.

    Look it up man. I'm too tired to rehash it.

    hellas1.5

  13. #13

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    Quote Originally Posted by hellas1 View Post
    No sir. I'm a Christina by the way Ho Ho ......whatever the hell you mean....
    Meaning that e.g. christianity dosen't require much own thinking, but more believing. Otherwise christians could be muslims, musilms could be jews and jews (from a religious view) could be christians. As none of those religions could survive a firm theological introspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by hellas1 View Post
    In a quite older thread, I mentioned that according to the Pali Tripitaka, Consciousness existed BEFORE creation.
    I very much doubt that any buddhist script mentioned consciousness existing before creation... simply because:

    - Buddhism doen't state any kind of creation (which would imply somekind of "creation-doing" enity)

    Quote Originally Posted by hellas1 View Post
    Look it up man. I'm too tired to rehash it.
    That will sound very complacent for anyome with at least some knowlegde of buddhism - as said above: buddhism doesn't acknolege the idea of creation (by anykind of enity).


    @Kaitsar: Good argument there!

  14. #14

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    You know, there is a former Buddhist monk who converted to Orthodoxy on Athos. He spent his life searching and searching for truth. What was missing was Christ. He is the Logos, the Word, and the Truth. Only in He can it be found.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dan the Man
    obviously I'm a large angry black woman and you're a hot blonde!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    @Kaitsar,

    Praise God for sending the Lord Jesus Christ!

    Alright......
    hellas1.5

  16. #16
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Cape Ann
    Posts
    13,053

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Kaitsar View Post
    You know, there is a former Buddhist monk who converted to Orthodoxy on Athos. He spent his life searching and searching for truth. What was missing was Christ. He is the Logos, the Word, and the Truth. Only in He can it be found.
    And I saw somewhere that 30% of American Buddhists had been/are Jews (depending on whether you take it as a religion or a cultural group.)

    In India there were 11,000 converts to Buddhism just in the city of Ahmedabad in 2010 on a single day.

    One person turning from a religion to another is silly as an example.

    The Ajahn Brahm fellow in the OP quite clearly explains why Christianity is hollow mysticism in another video. Essentially he says Buddhism can actually explain quite simply what they're shooting for: A life without being a slave to desire. Buddhism isn't really a religion so I think quite highly of a lot of their ideas as examples of applied psychology and stuff. Like for example people assume that the more choices we have the more freedom we have, but what we actually want is what we need and want to be the only choice. Like if you're shopping it doesn't actually help you to have a thousand styles of shirts in a dozen different sizes. That basically means you need to work your way through twelve thousand different types of shirts just to pick one that satisfies you, and it won't satisfy you because it will never live up to feeling like the best in 12,000 shirts because it's just a shirt. You may as well just have a shirt handed to you and put it on. The more choices you have to make the less time you have and the more tasks you force yourself to complete. So basically it would be less painful just to wrap yourself in a yellowish robe.

    Basically Buddhism is supposed to get you to a place where you're so at peace and at ease with life that you aren't afraid or worried anymore. Then you really don't need God anyhow because things are legitimately great and you need no one to thank but yourself and those who helped you get there. You don't need Jesus to rescue you from your life of sin, you stopped sinning. Everything becomes fine. You're at peace, you can now see the big picture, you've become enlightened. Ergo Buddha is a Lucifer; just not that one in the Bible (that Light Bearer is an Assyrian.)

    Theraveda Buddhism does seem to mesh with quantum mechanics pretty well (which worries me somewhat )
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

  17. #17
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    The Hell called Conscription
    Posts
    35,615

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    Basically Buddhism is supposed to get you to a place where you're so at peace and at ease with life that you aren't afraid or worried anymore. Then you really don't need God anyhow because things are legitimately great and you need no one to thank but yourself and those who helped you get there. You don't need Jesus to rescue you from your life of sin, you stopped sinning. Everything becomes fine. You're at peace, you can now see the big picture, you've become enlightened. Ergo Buddha is a Lucifer; just not that one in the Bible (that Light Bearer is an Assyrian.)
    But it does not answer the past or future; a person may in peace but he may also want to know why human beings exist at first and what is the purpose of mankind. Christianity does have answers, but the answers are simply put "God" in it which at best is shallow.
    Quote Originally Posted by Markas View Post
    Hellheaven, sometimes you remind me of King Canute trying to hold back the tide, except without the winning parable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    Cameron is midway between Black Rage and .. European Union ..

  18. #18
    Col. Tartleton's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Cape Ann
    Posts
    13,053

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    Quote Originally Posted by hellheaven1987 View Post
    But it does not answer the past or future; a person may in peace but he may also want to know why human beings exist at first and what is the purpose of mankind. Christianity does have answers, but the answers are simply put "God" in it which at best is shallow.
    Right, so you have 3 choices:

    • Dying before one can solve a question with no answer (unless "it just happened" is an answer.)
    • Taking a BS answer as some sort of placeholder or filler which basically defeats the purpose of seeking truth.
    • Just accepting that you probably won't figure it out and being cool with that.


    I mean no one knows why we exist and what our purpose is. Millions of years of soul searching has to my knowledge led to naught. There are some questions that can't be deciphered at all, or at least within the human lifetime.
    The Earth is inhabited by billions of idiots.
    The search for intelligent life continues...

  19. #19

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    Quote Originally Posted by Col. Tartleton View Post
    I mean no one knows why we exist and what our purpose is. Millions of years of soul searching has to my knowledge led to naught. There are some questions that can't be deciphered at all, or at least within the human lifetime.
    The most interesting question isn't the purpose of us or what the world is about, but who is asking (something rightfully exculded from physics, as it isn't even assumed to be - in physics - as it's existence is non-physical, but actually that's what is doing the physics right now - or not? or are the particles examining themselfs?). What is the asking quality, and is it this or that part of the brain, or is it this or that particle of the brain that is perceiving the other brain-particles? And beyond that the world? - which can't be seen by any particle in the brain, but possilby only via processed information issued to some brain-particles from outer sensoric instancies? To just believe this or anything what any outer instance says is totaly dumm!

  20. #20
    Denny Crane!'s Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Newcastle, England
    Posts
    24,462

    Default Re: Buddhism and Autonomy, knowledge and truth

    Thank you I do appreciate it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •