Loan Sword ASHIGARU and I.I. Retainers OP,OP and OP

**eye-opener** · June 28, 2011, 06:57 PM

Hello TWC Community,
I want to call attention to the overpowered loan sword ashigaru unit.

Here is one example:
1.

I have used fugu cook(-2 attack), but these units still have 24 attack...
Ok, that is definetely possible with blademaster (+3attack) and the other retainer "yagyu" (+2 attack).
This loan sword unit has standard 21 attack (that is possible with all four attack upgrades).

Then comes the ikko ikki dlc, there is no need for blademaster or yagyu, because loan sword ashigaru become much more effective with the ikko ikki retainers like way of ikko ikki, rennyos teachings and the one which gives the opponents hero and veteran units -2 attack, -1moral...

(Besides, my fully upgraded level 9 katana samurai
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/54...A7C167EA179ED/
, which costs 1280 kokus can have only 24 attack [without any bonus effects.] and i am sure that a fully upgraded level 9 loan sword ashigaru does not cost even 900 kokus)

2.

Banzai gives the unit +8 attack bonus and +3 attack.

3.

The leadership general uses audacity and the unit gets a bonus of +3 attack.
(If you wonder why it has 13 morale, my enemy has taken the morale dojo)

4.

Here you see audacity and banzai combined and the loan sword ashigaru has now easily 30 attack! FAT!
If I wouldn't have used fugu cook, he would have 32 attack!!! HOLY !!!

And my second example is going to shock you:

I cannot explain it to myself... I have used fugu cook...
He had actually 5 loan sword units with 26 attack?!?!?!?! (I have not made a picture of the fifth unit.)
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/54...D285CB65A2919/
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/54...64103CD43CAB1/
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/54...76DC48FCDC303/
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/54...385D965AB2DB2/

What happened with my katana samurais??? I have used blademaster and yagyu!:
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/54...446A79866E91C/
http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/54...1F0B54274A64B/

THAT SEEMS TO BE A BIG CHEAT! / THE BIGGEST BUG EVER!!! (because i think that the effects of my retainers[blademaster(+3attack) and yagyu(2+attack)] are passed to his units!!! So it is possible when he had yagyu himself that he got the 26 attack [21+3+2 +2-2= 26])

greetings,
eye-opener

**talljoe** · June 28, 2011, 07:03 PM

I don't get it... are loan sword ashigaru available in Single player or not? I downloaded Ikko Ikki... and no loan sword ashigaru. Am i missing something, or they only in MP?

**AceMcKillYoFace** · June 28, 2011, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by talljoe

I don't get it... are loan sword ashigaru available in Single player or not? I downloaded Ikko Ikki... and no loan sword ashigaru. Am i missing something, or they only in MP?

They are only in multiplayer, this thread is complaining about their over-poweredness in multiplayer.

**BlueMonkE** · June 28, 2011, 07:30 PM

AUM-SHO has 'em, I believe.

**hermpes** · June 28, 2011, 07:32 PM

i've given up on multiplayer as i find it's just a mess balance wise

**spicykorean** · June 28, 2011, 07:37 PM

I don't think that overpowered is the right way to describe it. The loanswords by themselves aren't overpowered since they are still vulnerable to morale shocks and chain routing. They also drop like flies against bow and matchlock fire.

The sad part about all this is that eventually everyone will phase out katana samurais since loanswords are cheaper and you pretty much get the same or more out of them.

Everyone will use upgraded loanswords with retainers so all things will become balanced. Katana samurais are the losers in all this.

**Fuzzynut** · June 28, 2011, 08:55 PM

Just a big ol' hot mess.

**KittySN** · June 28, 2011, 09:40 PM

There's already a thread in MP about this. Try skirmishing instead of accepting combat and you wouldn't get pwn'd by ashigaru. People lose to them because they fight them where they'll win. Of course allowing yourself to get swarmed causes a loss. They're not OP, you're just using a poor strategy. A balanced army needs to skirmish to fight a rush army, so SKIRMISH.

Raging and whining saying "OP" to anything that beats you reflects a lack of ingenuity on your part.

The only units that are truly OP in MP are Cannon Bunes with Siege Tower Bunes.

**Fuzzynut** · June 29, 2011, 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by KittySN

There's already a thread in MP about this. Try skirmishing instead of accepting combat and you wouldn't get pwn'd by ashigaru. People lose to them because they fight them where they'll win. Of course allowing yourself to get swarmed causes a loss. They're not OP, you're just using a poor strategy. A balanced army needs to skirmish to fight a rush army, so SKIRMISH.

Raging and whining saying "OP" to anything that beats you reflects a lack of ingenuity on your part.

The only units that are truly OP in MP are Cannon Bunes with Siege Tower Bunes.

Hmmm...so you say all this about people calling OP on a unit you don't find to be OP, then proceed to contradict yourself by calling something you deem to be OP, OP.

**AlfonsoVIII** · June 28, 2011, 09:55 PM

Are you eye-opener from the AG clan?

Loan Sword Attack Vanilla 9
+2 regular upgrades now 15
+ Blade master and yagu now 20
+ clan token upgrades now 26
+ stand and fight now 30

so yeah with all the correct retainers (ikko ikki adds defense not attack) and all melee attack upgrades on loan swords, then most def can get up to 30 without cheating. and add bonzai which is +2 or +4 attack. and renyos teachins give -2 attack to his own unit +3 defense so he might be using it, but not be.

**~~Tyler_the_Great~~** · June 28, 2011, 10:25 PM

Not to bust anyones bubble here. But lone swords are not over powered. Matchlocks will ripe them appart in seconds. Try taking 4 matchlocks in future.... But then you most likely cry about them being overpowered too.......

**Last Samurai** · June 29, 2011, 03:59 AM

Originally Posted by Tyler_the_Great

Not to bust anyones bubble here. But lone swords are not over powered. Matchlocks will ripe them appart in seconds. Try taking 4 matchlocks in future.... But then you most likely cry about them being overpowered too.......

Ok, so i'm taking 4 matchlocks , shooting them and... one unit is fleeing, second unit is weavering, but we've got 8 another. Their next advantage is a big number of men in unit so they're not so easy to shoot down. Rush armies are ready to counter skirmish: they've got no skirmish units so all your skirmish will last 2-3 volleys until they'll get your lines.

And you are not sure if opponent will use ashigaru spam, and fighting with balanced or even casual rush army with a lot of strong cav using 4 matchlocks is not easy.

In TW there was always a model of 'rock, paper, scisors' - relations among unit kinds, spears kill cav, sword kill spears etc. but here in shogun2 we've got also this relation between tactics - correct balance army should be able to defeat every enemy's army, and it can't do that.

**Nagels** · June 29, 2011, 04:11 AM

Every unit has it's own plus and minus qualities depending on how you like to play and how your opponent likes to play.

It seems many a unit has some op issues at some juncture

Instead of nerfing units stats why not just restrict unit numbers to say four max of a specific type at their current cost (be they vanilla or vets).......and if you require more then you should pay more on a rolling cost increase basis.

**eye-opener** · June 29, 2011, 01:49 AM

@KittySN:
You know how i play? I think you dont know... I am not a bad player at all and you are not telling me anything new... I play as good as kaptenfloede and if you dont belive me just ask him yourself.
"They're not OP, you're just using a poor strategy."
You should learn how to argue... How do you even want to know my strategy??? This thread is about imbalance and not about how i play vs. loan sword ashigaru spammers. Like spicykorean already said katana samurai become useless -> because loan sword ashigaru are to overpowered.
@AlfonsoVIII:
I think that i can count and i can tell you that i am sure that there is not anything wrong i have mentioned in my first post. Yes, i am eye-opener AG .
"so yeah with all the correct retainers (ikko ikki adds defense not attack) and all melee attack upgrades on loan swords, then most def can get up to 30 without cheating. and add bonzai which is +2 or +4 attack. and renyos teachins give -2 attack to his own unit +3 defense so he might be using it, but not be."
What do you talk about??? The first example is not suspected cheating, pls read my first post carefully.
@Tyler_the_Great:
"Try taking 4 matchlocks in future.... But then you most likely cry about them being overpowered too.."
I have never complained before about any other unit being overpowered. Funny, that you say take 4 matchlocks... in the second example i had 4 matchlocks with me...
"But lone swords are not over powered. Matchlocks will ripe them appart in seconds."
That is also funny, you are telling me to beat loan sword ashigaru spam with matchlock spam...
@all:
I can handle loan sword ashigaru spams perfectly fine, this thread is about the imbalance of the loan sword ashigaru and about overpowered ikko ikki retainers.